LEGAL?...but FAIR?

[Knavey]

Forums, reviews and the Matrix website clearly warned of what people are getting into when they buy this game. Its not like it is sitting on a shelf for a general window shopper to stumble across.

[Buck Beach]

Madgamer, I think you are a 69 year old cry baby. Poor me and bad game company that seems to be your constant theme. I got an idea, play the games you already have.

67 and happy with AE!!

Buck

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

... heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and charging for the forum time LOL[:D]

freeboy, that's classic! [&o][:D]

... and the thought scares me to death! [X(][;)]

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: freeboy

... heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and charging for the forum time LOL[:D]

freeboy, that's classic! [&o][:D]

... and the thought scares me to death! [X(][;)]

Isn't that what some online newspapers are starting to do now, to drive up revenue?

So, is's already started...
Subscriptions, boo...[:D]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

I have never played the original WITP, but I play and understand (not completely of course, but not significantly worse than WITP players either) AE. From what I understand there was a significant effort to make the AI better for those who don't play PBEM, so I don't really understand your criticism.

the AI definetely is better in AE. Not because it´s so much smarter but because of the new scripts that were put into it. You can still kill off all the IJA and IJN at a single spot on the map if the AI tries to bang it´s head on the wall there but at least you now don´t know it in advance like you did in WITP. In AE you have the chance to be surprised by the AI. That´s it IMO.

[Rainer]

Not only do I disagree completely with your view, I also feel what your saying is not fair to the people who made AE and what they achieved.
PS: playing PacWar, WitP, WitP/AE since 1990, always Allied against AI, and I always felt well treated here at the forum with my remarks and questions.

[Mundy]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I dunno, I dont' find AE that much more difficult than WITP. It is bigger, yes, and there are more options and such, but there are quite a few aids that I find invaluable (eg, sub patrols, waypoints) that I would miss very much if I went back to WITP. So if anything I find AE to be slicker and quicker!

As for stable - seems perfectly stable on my machine?

My only hang up skimming through AE are the search arcs. I always keep a TF's float planes on ASW at range zero, but I figure I'll have to babysit the VS squadrons' arcs as the CV TF moves along.

That and setting up every VP outpost. I can see myself getting blindsided somewhere along the line.

I definitely agree on waypoints. That will make direct convoys to Oz nicer.

M-

[Mynok]

Good grief....can't you people recognize a troll when you smell it?

[DivePac88]

There's that Died Horse again!

[chesmart]

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[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: che200

[font="times new roman"]Troll[:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]
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excellent answer... while madgamer obviously offended NOONE, I guess he should find something for you... very nice behaviour[8|]

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Good grief....can't you people recognize a troll when you smell it?

I certainly agree with you that he's a troll. I find it nice though that almost everyone so far have responded in a calm and polite way instead of heaping manure on the guy [:)].

Impoliteness infuriates me.

[Mynok]

The right approach to a troll is to DISREGARD it. [:D]

[chesmart]

Well at least Castor I do not comment negatively all the time on this game like some people do. BTW I forgot to thank you for wrecking my AE experience by attacking the dev team and thus limiting the expansions to the game. The funny thing is we both played witp and in my case the limitations of the game reduced my fun factor while AE has solved most of the issues in WITP and is woth every cent i paid for it. There is no other game out there with the detail this game has and finally it is playable against the AI thats what i play and probably most of the people in this forum.

[Zywack]

I'm someone who got AE two months or so ago without having ever played WITP before or any other game more "hardcore" than Hearts of Iron. I have to agree that it's a big complex world to dive in, but it's certainly possible to learn it without buying both games.
 
What I personally did was read part of the manual, go in the Attu scenario to try what I learned, and repeat until I got through the manual. Then, I played Coral Sea on both sides. Then I scoured the forums for all the information I deemed necessary; Every question I had was already answered in scattered threads here and there. Then I put Scenario 1 up for play as AI vs AI for a few days, checking a few things and the orders the AI had set. And I started my real game.
 
I'm currently in a single player game as Japan, scenario 1. It's currently January 30th 1942 on my first and only game, and it's definitively playable even for a newbie like me. Sure, I didn't have huge sweeping incredible victories, but I'm faring fine. I just started the siege of Bataan and I'm 2-3 hex from Singapore with it's airforce destroyed. I have two American CVs sunk, and I have Rabaul captured. I'm currently attacking Port Moresby and although it will be an hard fight as it got reinforced even with my attempts to prevent that, I fully expect to capture it in time since I finally have their annoying banshees destroyed. I have under 10 carrier planes destroyed in battle so far and I just finished reparing the Shotaku and the Akagi (from the carrier battles) so everything is going smooth. Ship sunk tally is 22 losses for me (Biggest being a DD and 3 AMC) compared to 248 for the allies. China went pretty badly and I got hammered badly in southern China, but the situation is looking much better now so I should be okay. Economy is going okay, and currently taking the last Brunei oil fields so I hope my Oil situation will be tolerable.
 
It's my first game, and it definitively looks as if I won't have to restart due to horribly messing up something. Yes, it's against the AI, and no I'm not shattering any records in genius or anything like that, but I am having a good, playable time without having bought WITP. Yes there's still a few things I don't understand, such as why I can't resize the 3 Val unit (or 12 Kate unit) on one of the otherwise empty CVE when parked at Kure, or other minor subjects.
 
Yes, I do agree that suggesting new players to play the Attu island scenario (or Coral Sea or even Guadalcanal) would be a good idea. I do agree that there should be more information pop-ups, or reminders like "You cannot activate torpedoes due to not having an air HQ present", or knowing how big a port you need to reload your battleship ammo without having to alt-tab to the instruction pdf, or knowing why you can't get new planes at a certain airport. That kind of information would make it a world easier for new players, but it's not necessary. Neither is playing WITP.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: Zywack

I'm someone who got AE two months or so ago without having ever played WITP before or any other game more "hardcore" than Hearts of Iron. I have to agree that it's a big complex world to dive in, but it's certainly possible to learn it without buying both games.

What I personally did was read part of the manual, go in the Attu scenario to try what I learned, and repeat until I got through the manual. Then, I played Coral Sea on both sides. Then I scoured the forums for all the information I deemed necessary; Every question I had was already answered in scattered threads here and there. Then I put Scenario 1 up for play as AI vs AI for a few days, checking a few things and the orders the AI had set. And I started my real game.

I'm currently in a single player game as Japan, scenario 1. It's currently January 30th 1942 on my first and only game, and it's definitively playable even for a newbie like me. Sure, I didn't have huge sweeping incredible victories, but I'm faring fine. I just started the siege of Bataan and I'm 2-3 hex from Singapore with it's airforce destroyed. I have two American CVs sunk, and I have Rabaul captured. I'm currently attacking Port Moresby and although it will be an hard fight as it got reinforced even with my attempts to prevent that, I fully expect to capture it in time since I finally have their annoying banshees destroyed. I have under 10 carrier planes destroyed in battle so far and I just finished reparing the Shotaku and the Akagi (from the carrier battles) so everything is going smooth. Ship sunk tally is 22 losses for me (Biggest being a DD and 3 AMC) compared to 248 for the allies. China went pretty badly and I got hammered badly in southern China, but the situation is looking much better now so I should be okay. Economy is going okay, and currently taking the last Brunei oil fields so I hope my Oil situation will be tolerable.

It's my first game, and it definitively looks as if I won't have to restart due to horribly messing up something. Yes, it's against the AI, and no I'm not shattering any records in genius or anything like that, but I am having a good, playable time without having bought WITP. Yes there's still a few things I don't understand, such as why I can't resize the 3 Val unit (or 12 Kate unit) on one of the otherwise empty CVE when parked at Kure, or other minor subjects.

Yes, I do agree that suggesting new players to play the Attu island scenario (or Coral Sea or even Guadalcanal) would be a good idea. I do agree that there should be more information pop-ups, or reminders like "You cannot activate torpedoes due to not having an air HQ present", or knowing how big a port you need to reload your battleship ammo without having to alt-tab to the instruction pdf, or knowing why you can't get new planes at a certain airport. That kind of information would make it a world easier for new players, but it's not necessary. Neither is playing WITP.

Well written!

[chesmart]

Agreed 100%

[madgamer2]

THANKS FOR ALL THE POSTS! I have a habit of looking at the world the world of games the way I want them to be rather than the way they are. Not having a really good ability to use the written language have not really stated my real view. In the real world it makes no difference what so ever.
When I install a game I expect to be able to at least know how to run the thing. I don't think I should have to go to a excellent forum such as this to learn how to even start the game. I had WitP for several weeks before I had an idea of how to play the thing.
I could not even start the Japan side because of the production rules/
I read all the posts that were suggested to help understand different partrs of the game but this just made me more confused than ever. Even with WitP it was a struggle as each time a patch or update or such came out I started the game again. I played the first six months so many time to try to under stand why things happened that were not understood by me.Why did these ships not load , why did these other ships not unload. I spent hours on the game that I should have been doing other things. Perhaps most of you have never had the frustration of really WANTING to learn a game and found you just could notn devote the time, effort or brain power to do so.
After a couple of years I thought If I tried hard enough I could play WitP and for the first time in my life I found a mountain I could not climb. I then was told that WitP was going to get a upgrade and was ecstatic but as time wore on and the design of AE was done in an entirely different way, one which perhaps will be used in the future. I could see that AE was going to be a game in its own right and much more complicated. My dream of having a game on the level of WitP that had corrections in the flaws was not going to be but instead a monster game requiring much more time and for me work was replacing it. I sort of lost it at that point and wrote the post that started this thread in a mental mood that well lets just say was not suited to the task of what I wanted to say.
I have been in touch with several former members of the forum who are like me and a couple of new players who expected to have tutorials to help learn the complications of AE. They had no idea of how to even start the game. I know what it is to spend hours and hours on a game as I have done with Oblivion. I wanted a playable version of WitP that I could handle. Well I can play WitP even though I do not understand why it does or does not do certain things and I can keep ahead of the rather dumb AI most of the time. It could also be that not doing better against the AI and only as the Allies when I wanted to play the Jap side but was frustrated by the production rules made me feel like a total moron and I wished to be like all of you who responded and have the ability to play AE by PBEM but I don't have on time alone let alone trying to grasp and do all the details of just one turn.
I see the future of games in AE as the design process works very well and there will be other games that are even more detailed in the future and this series will go on to bigger and better things but ZI am not of that generation that can or will devote 8 or 10 hours in a day for any game. Its just that I have like you a great interest in the pacific war and am not happy that I can't go along with the advances.
I have a confession to make to you all. I lost a good friend over AE because we were going to buy it when it came out and play. He bought it and understands most of it and has tried to help me do the same. I spent several of the last few week ends at his house trying but its to much for me. It would be nice in the future when the next engine is designed to allow some difficulty settings that the player can control for folks like me
So I apologize to you all for the rather insulting post that started this thread except for one thing. I would have liked to see a better way to get started like a tutorial or a special game designed for that purpose. Remember most of you have been playing for a long time and have a hard time understanding those new players who load up the game and have a difficult time knowing where to start. I am ashamed to say I read all the posts for WitP that were recommended and also for AE and they made me more confused than ever which kind of sent me off the deep end and I am sorry for that it demeans the players, the design team and the Matrix game company noe of which I intended to do.


your replies helped me see I was wrong in posting what I did. I will go on playing the Allies in WitP and try to be satisfied with that. Envy can be a terrible thing and you all deserve better, much better.


Madgamer

[wwengr]

I guess that I can understand the sentiment, but honestly, I enjoy the complexity. Very few "toys" succeed in providing creative distraction for longer than a few weeks and WiTP and AE will have a very lasting effect for me. Many layers of interest...

The one thing that I never understand though is the occasional compaint about the cost. Aside from the fact that there is an abundance of ways to get an understanding of what you are getting before you spend, there is the nature of the transaction itself. We all voluntarily entered our credit card number and hit "submit". Having been involved in industry for a long time, understanding how much a labor hour really costs, understanding how development costs have to be amortized over a life of anticipated sales, and understanding how customer support and warranty costs must be paid for; I am absolutely stunned that they managed to get such an incredible product out to our little niche market for only $80! What a bargain!

I hope the owners of Matrix Games are able to live quite comfortably on the fruits of their labor. I certainly believe that they did me a great service at a bargain price!

[bradfordkay]

madgamer, you've been on this forum off and on enough that I find it hard to believe that you never understood that AE was going to be better than WITP because it added more detail. Yes, they mentioned several additions to the UI that would take some of the work out of the game, but they never led us to believe that AE would be less detail oriented than WITP.

And surely you were here at the time of AE's release, when Matrix decided - based upon feedback from the forum - that they would not require prior ownership of WITP in order to play AE. Sensitive to thoughts similar to what you espoused in the OP of this thread, Matrix offered a discount on AE to registered owners of WITP for a fairly lengthy period of time. I know that you haven't bought AE and so have missed out on that deal, but you were offered the chance. Based upon the theme of the vast majority of your posts on this forum, it is probably best that you never purchased AE.

However, you shouldn't lambast Matrix Games for the complexity of AE. It is a product of the combined wishes of the players of WITP, based in large part upon input received from this forum as well as having been created by folks hired on from this forum. It may not be your cup of tea, but it certainly appeals to the crowd for which it was created.

No, it isn't a game for the casual gamer - but the casual gamer was never its target. WITP and AE have always been marketed to the hard core wargamer. All the games in this system, even UV and WPO, have been marketed as having a complexity level of Advanced-Grognard. How much more plain can they make it?

I am sorry that you find it to be too much. I even sympathized with you the first few times you posted your rants about the game. Now it just becoming tiresome, especially with the OP in this thread. I will repeat myself: at no time has Matrix ever suggested that AE would be less complex than WITP so you were never duped.