Hs293, Hs294 and the IJN

[chesmart]

Yes Nemo if you can give me data as well, for the bombs it would be much appreciated

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Bletchley,

As re: Ki-198 ( 198 is 3/4 of 264 --- just a little amusement on my part )... I don't

[:D]I spent a while trying to look for info about that "He 198", obviously didn't find any.

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
think it should be represented as having six engines in art etc... 6 engines would just be a data-driven measure designed to increase the cost of production to 12 x 18 = 216 HI PER plane. So, if you made 60 per month you would actually use an entire day's HI for the entire country of Japan to produce just these 60 planes.

Ok -- I got that the purpose of defining it as a "6E" plane was to make it extremely expensive to build, I wasn't really visualizing a Me 323-like flying whale to be a viable weapons platform in an environment where the Allies have massive air superiority I imagined Hellcat pilots laughing at the thing and then shooting it down...

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Remember that the game doesn't care what number is beside the device type designating engine type. That exists only to calculate production cost. This was why I was able to mod the Ki-115 into a single slot with no engines ( thus halving its production cost from 36 to 18 HI ) and also enable to be both land and carrier-based and also float-based. You have to divorce the reality of the plane from the data you enter. A slavish concordance between data and reality will block off interesting avenues of tactical/technical characteristic modelling.

Thank you again Nemo for this very useful and informative piece of advice

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Fritz X wouldn't have been anywhere near 1500mm. That's a massively excessive penetration. The Ohka was functionally extremely different to a glide bomb in terms of terminal KE and armour-piercing design. If you want and you give me 1 day or two I can get you some reasonable performance characteristics for the Fritz X and Hs293.


For now though Dili's data is pretty close based on what I remember from memory.

I haven't really started any simulations - I need first to get to grips with the editor itself and with several RL issues which have been reducing my spare time significantly

Took note of Dili's data (thanks to Dili as well). But, although it might be slightly off-topic, I still wonder about the exact meaning of the "Penetration" parameter...

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Interestingly though might Japan not just be much better to go for a Ki-198 and put 2 Ohkas on it... It is much easier to train a pilot to fly a plane into a target than create all of the necessary radio optics etc etc. Optics can be jammed, a pilot's eyes can't be. The main problem with the Ohka was that so few planes survived to actually launch. If you had a much more survivable mother craft then the Ohka might be much more effective.

That's a very good point. The idea is that the Third Reich did all the research and development, and the IJ got blueprints, prototypes and instructors to set up the whole thing. Still, your idea is very plausible historically and thought provoking.

It just made me realize that the real reason that motivates me to do this mod is to wonder whether - given some collaboration with its nominal allies - the IJ had a chance to stem the tide or at least, make Allied advance considerably slower and more expensive. Without resorting to Kamikaze attacks. A desperate and not that effective measure which has always looked to me as one of the - many and not the most horrible - desperate and grizzly chapters of World War II.

[Dili]

I would like to use some artwork and data from your Mod is it ok?

I don't have artwork scaled to the game sizes, didn't started to do that since after while it was clear Matrix isn't interested in Mods for outside Pacific. I have many images that can be used for artwork since the research continues. What you are looking for?

I still wonder about the exact meaning of the "Penetration" parameter...

I think you can assume the penetration of the missile works like the aerial bomb penetration.

[trojan58]

regarding a carrier a/c for the guided bombs.

I wouldnt thin the Japanese would have considered the He177 due to its service issues, another option could be the Ju290....long range, fairly well armed especially the A-5 version and a good load capacity.

[RyanCrierie]

A Friend of mine wrote a decent alternate history that involved a German fleet (including the Graf Zeppelin and a few other carriers including captured French Foch, British Illustrious) going up against a US Navy carrier fleet.

And one of the key problems he faced in putting togehter a plausible German Naval Air Arm was a lack of a real scout plane -- while the FW-190 *can* probably be converted to a carrier based plane and can probably fill the fighter-bomber role pretty well, there is a really bad hole in the German naval inventory.

In the 1940s, Voice radio was not that reliable or long ranged -- so if you wanted a good naval scout, you needed a second guy to handle a morse-code radio. The SBD Dauntless had the gunner handle the radio when he wasn't defending the plane; and in the Avenger, the ventral tunnel gunner handled the radio when he wasn't defending the plane.

The Germans other than the Ju-87, didn't have a plane that came close to that role. While you *could* use one of the various experimental modifications that turned the FW-190 or Bf-109 into a two seat trainer -- it wouldn't be rugged enough to stand up to carrier use; leaving only the Ju-87 to fill that role.

While there *is* the possibility of a carrier based Me-110 or Me-410; it would be a major problem to refit it into a naval aircraft -- it's significantly heavier than either the Me-109 or Ju-87, and there would be major delays in producing one, meaning the Ju-87 would have to soldier onwards.

There are really no projects other than the Ju-187 "improved" Stuka that are suitable for a carrier bomber to replace the Stuka -- the Germans seemed to not like single engine attack aircraft.

[oldman45]

Does the game engine really support the radio controlled bomb concept? The parent A/C has to keep everything in sight all the while dealing with CAP and AAA.

[Nemo121]

Penetration works pretty much as you'd expect. It checks penetration listed for the device vs the thickness of the armour hit.

I'm certain that there will be some level of randomisation and accounting for overmatching/undermatching of device calibre vs armour thickness ( a phenomenon where a weapon of greater calibre than the armour thickness might actually penetrate more than one would expect due to its "overmatching" the armour ). So, theoretically a 16 inch shell which would be expected to penetrate 6 inches of armour might actually penetrate 7 inches if the plate is only 7 inches thick while the test plate it was fired at and only penetrated 6 inches of was 16 inches.... Its a lot more complicated than that obviously but that'll do for a thumbnail sketch. )

I also think that if there's a large degree of over-penetration that you might have a greater chance of getting a critical hit/doing a lot of damage even with a non-critical hit. I haven't exhaustively tested that but it is a sense I get from seeing some weapons which massively over-penetrate but have moderate effect ratings.... They seem to cause more criticals and serious damages than one would expect given their moderate effect rating.

So, I think the Ohka's penetration rating is designed to show that whatever it hits it will penetrate and to give it enough "oomph" to ensure it gets lots of critical damages when it does hit.


Oldman 45,
Yes it does. It models them as PGMs ( Plane Guided Missile - or somesuch ) and if you fiddle with the accuracy ratings enough you can get pretty historical performance from radio or wire-guided bombs.




Ryan,
If they were going for carriers then I expect you might have seen a variant of the Ju-87 as the dive-bomber and a variant of the Fw-190 as the torpedo bomber ( if it carried any torpedo bombers ) --- some 190s were outfitted to carry torpedoes and operated in the English Channel against light combatants etc IIRC... They planned to use a variant of the 109 as the main fighter.

With that plane mix I doubt the Graf Zeppelin would have created much havoc at all. Instead it would have found itself overwhelmed and destroyed in pretty short order.

[RyanCrierie]

Artwork presently done:

(L to Right)

He-177A-5
Bf-109T-1 (Official Naval Aircraft Scheme)
He-177A-5 with Hs-293
Bf-109T-1 (my own naval aircraft scheme, with grey instead of green)
Fw-200 Condor
Ju-187 "Improved Stuka"
Ju-252
Me-264

[BletchleyGeek]

@Nemo, again, thanks for sharing your wisdom
@Ryan, those planes look great - can I borrow a few of them? I will just be plastering a big red dot over the german cross

[trojan58]

could you post the stats for the planes when you've worked them out (for discussion)

[traskott]

@Ryan: Can you send me that planes? They're amazing

 Thank you in advance

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Bletchley,

As re: Ki-198 ( 198 is 3/4 of 264 --- just a little amusement on my part )... I don't think it should be represented as having six engines in art etc... 6 engines would just be a data-driven measure designed to increase the cost of production to 12 x 18 = 216 HI PER plane. So, if you made 60 per month you would actually use an entire day's HI for the entire country of Japan to produce just these 60 planes.

Remember that the game doesn't care what number is beside the device type designating engine type. That exists only to calculate production cost. This was why I was able to mod the Ki-115 into a single slot with no engines ( thus halving its production cost from 36 to 18 HI ) and also enable to be both land and carrier-based and also float-based. You have to divorce the reality of the plane from the data you enter. A slavish concordance between data and reality will block off interesting avenues of tactical/technical characteristic modelling.

Fritz X wouldn't have been anywhere near 1500mm. That's a massively excessive penetration. The Ohka was functionally extremely different to a glide bomb in terms of terminal KE and armour-piercing design. If you want and you give me 1 day or two I can get you some reasonable performance characteristics for the Fritz X and Hs293.


For now though Dili's data is pretty close based on what I remember from memory.


Interestingly though might Japan not just be much better to go for a Ki-198 and put 2 Ohkas on it... It is much easier to train a pilot to fly a plane into a target than create all of the necessary radio optics etc etc. Optics can be jammed, a pilot's eyes can't be. The main problem with the Ohka was that so few planes survived to actually launch. If you had a much more survivable mother craft then the Ohka might be much more effective.

Have you considered using the Nakajima G10N as the launching platform? It was a 1942 project that never got off the drawing board, but was an extrememly long range, 6E aircraft that could serve as an excellent launch platform for these weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_G10N

It is another option.

[RyanCrierie]

ORIGINAL: traskott

@Ryan: Can you send me that planes? They're amazing

You can download the PNG files which I use when placing them into the game HERE

Just click on which service/nationality you want to see.

I do still have to add many 1950s stuff that I did, but this is a good start.

[traskott]

Thank you !! Superb work [:)]

[RyanCrierie]

Added Ju-87D and -87E, plus a lot of the 1950s USN stuff.

I've also rehosted various interesting art done by various members that I found on Spooky's site; specifically so far, TOMLabel's 1950s Korean War SCB conversion Art for Essexes and Midways.

[traskott]

I suposse the alpha of the planes can be made easily, no? 

[traskott]

Never mind...currently doing it... 

[RyanCrierie]

Hmm you know, with so many people wanting to do Axis Mods, I might as well just make the final documents myself; there's MORE than enough space on the Japanese Planetop file to put in the entire lUftwaffe, Regia Aeronautica, etc.

[chesmart]

Ryan you are great !

[traskott]

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

Hmm you know, with so many people wanting to do Axis Mods, I might as well just make the final documents myself; there's MORE than enough space on the Japanese Planetop file to put in the entire lUftwaffe, Regia Aeronautica, etc.

No problem. [:)]. I'm making another one too ( I'm so original [8|]) and is very funny. Thanks for the art.