For Allied folks from a Japanese player **No Yank**

[khyberbill]

Or on the flip side - what is going to hurt you most, the loss of Suva, Pago?

Neither hurts unless you take Tahiti too but then you now really have a long supply tail! Going direct between Johnston and Guam is not a great idea for me, too many nasty Japanese air fields with Bettys in the area. I send large, well escorted convoys to Hobart and Aukland and rarely lose a merchant ship after the DD upgrades in 4/42 until I get rash and invade a large island or two in the DEI. Then I lose lots of them, but even then, I seem to get more each day than I lose. I love APA's and AKA's. They can offload a division plus lots of Base Forces and be gone in two days!

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Or on the flip side - what is going to hurt you most, the loss of Suva, Pago?

Neither hurts unless you take Tahiti too but then you now really have a long supply tail! Going direct between Johnston and Guam is not a great idea for me, too many nasty Japanese air fields with Bettys in the area. I send large, well escorted convoys to Hobart and Aukland and rarely lose a merchant ship after the DD upgrades in 4/42 until I get rash and invade a large island or two in the DEI. Then I lose lots of them, but even then, I seem to get more each day than I lose. I love APA's and AKA's. They can offload a division plus lots of Base Forces and be gone in two days!

where then can your opponent hurt you most khyberbill?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Also, what AREN'T you doing elsewhere with the 2nd and 4th? Many IJ players will use these divisions to capture Rabaul, Port Moresby, Horn Island, some of the Solomons, New Caledonia, Pago Pago or Darwin. Which units are you tasking with these (more) important targets?

this is my fundamental issue - if i dont take Pearl but do take Pago Pago then why doesnt an Allied player just take a more direct route through the pacific between Johnston and Guam? whats pago pago going to get me if he just comes straight west past the tiny islands of the pacific?

Or on the flip side - what is going to hurt you most, the loss of Suva, Pago?

IRL, the USN could have theoretically just bypassed the Marshalls, Gilberts and Wake Island and focused with laserlike precision to the exclusion of all other targets on the Marianas. They really weren't able to guarantee air supremacy for such a monumental undertaking until mid to late 1944 though. Even for the Americans, trying to land an amphibious force directly in the Marianas against an intact IJN is asking for a good old fashioned whooping.

In the meantime, they had to fend off the IJ efforts to cut off the supply lines to Australia and New Zealand. Samoa was their line in the sand. I bet that the US would have gone "all in" for countering a Japanese move here, had it come to that.

If I could, with a few landings, force a US defensive strategy in the Pacific until 1944 and cut off New Zealand and Australia from supply and force deployment, that would be fantastically successful. Pago Pago is a pretty good place to interdict any Westward movement of the USN-that's why he'll fight you for it. Take it on the cheap if you can!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

Or on the flip side - what is going to hurt you most, the loss of Suva, Pago?

Take 'em both if you can! Why not? They're weakly defended at the beginning of the game and could dramatically change your opponent's strategy. Make him start his island hopping closer to home-it give you more opportunities to interdict his shipping and assault forces as the game winds on.

If you could hold them for a few months, that would be successful in my mind.

[undercovergeek]

im building a strategy around going for the targets that are imperative from day 1, now i know its not the same but against the AI i had Singapore on christmas day, Palembang on the 10th Dec, Soerbaja on the 20th Dec and Balikpapan on the 26th Dec - using the 5th, 18th, Imp Guards, 48th, 38th divisions in malaya, the 65th brigade and nav guards at Palembang and the 21st, 16th, 56th, and 33rd to take the others - 3 of the Sing Divs are now free to go to Batavia - Java will be done by the first week in Jan and the other divs can roll out to Timor and Darwin.

In which case the 2nd and 4th can board ships and head straight for Pago and Suva and i can work backwards from there.

I also had a lot of success taking French Frigate shoals and converting it to a sub supply base instead of the subs going back to Kwaj and stationing the KB between Pearl and West Coast with the refuellers a while away - im not making the mistake of a second day strike ill just head east for a few days and sink anything coming from the west coast

[khyberbill]

where then can your opponent hurt you most khyberbill?

You are going to have to play me to find out. I recall when you invaded Hawaii in your other game my first thought was OH MY GOD what would I do in this situation. And then realized that while it would be a pain for a bit, that there are certain advantages to having Japan trying to hold any or all of those islands. An over expanded Japan is an over extended military target especially after 7/43.

[bklooste]

See a few allied players think they can just shut you down. Use the zeros than change to army planes.. Use your navy planes in the SW pac where they are most needed. Betties can hop from PM to Hawaii as needed.
 
IMHO Forget Fiji/Pago Pago etc.
 
With PH interdicted and PM /Lunga it will be a royal pain for the allies to supply these , keep an eye on them if they have less than 200AV just take em. If they have more just hunt their AKs.
 
Also KB raids on Brisbane , Sydney and Aukland will be more successfull with PH out of teh picture

[topeverest]

Undercovergeek,

Many good comments on this subject.

I think the most important factor in the success of a Hawaii strategy is how your human opponent is likely to react. An opponent who uses PH as a hub will be immediately sunding troops planes and supply at the beginning of the game. Many will spread out at least to a couple islands. I personally always replenish and reinforce hawaii as one of the prioirty 1 game items just to take this option away. Unless you have Lightning speed, the allied player following this strategy will beat you there. Also, to provide cover, you will have to either skimp on your initial PH attacks with KB, or you will have to send your carriers back to Marshalls for replenishment.

In summary, I agree it can have an effect against an inexperienced opponent, but most allied players will take that option away from you before January 1, 1942. Your supply line is long and very tenuous, and as others have said, your committment there forestalls other areas of the war.

Should you choose to do this, don't go in with the idea it is a minor effort. You probably will have Guadalcanal on your hands before you can kiss the sand.

[WITPPL]

I took All Hawaii.

I have bombed Pearl Harbour back into a stone Age.
Sunk over 40 of his ships there, including lots of Subs.


EVERY JAPANESE PLAYER SHOULD DO THAT.

but:
You need all of Hawaii not just a Lahaina to win air combat over Pearl.

You will need most of Your Zeroes (I have used all but 1 squadron), at least 100 "heavy" bombers.
2 Divisions will be fine but You need lots of Eng units ans Navy support units. Artillery is a must to strenghten Your counter invasion defences.

Also,

2 fleet HQs etc to use Lahaina as a major port.

It is a laaaarge subject but You just can not achieve more with less in this game.

[topeverest]

Witppl,

Agreed it can be done and takes full committment.

Any bad luck or good play / deployment of early resources on the allied part will likely cause failure. That said it certainly is an attractive (and risky) target to go after.

[undercovergeek]

in my first PBEM game i tried for Hawaii - getting there, crushing the airforce and naval power wasnt a problem at all - im still looking for the answer on what stopped me though - fully prepped, fully supplied troops with no fatigue or disruption had their AV reduced from 3000 to 700 - and the defenders had theirs upped from 900 to 4000 - didnt stand a chance

[topeverest]

Agreed,

When you play an experienced allied player, it is very tough to take it. Early in the war, I typically put 200 fighters and every bomber that doesnt have a definitive location to get to in Hawaii, and I add roughly 2 divisions along with beaucoup engineers to crank the fort up to 3 before any battle can develop...and new mines. Five BB's are quickly available as are up to 5 CV's by March 1. Keep in mind the naval ammo replenishment rule is a key factor here. The Americans dont have to win the naval battles. They only need to force the Japs to abort through multiple individual surface battles. And that doesnt take into account the force multiplier of the level 4 to 6 fort depending on the battle timing. My experience also points to the desperate nature of a creeping invasion strategy too. Taking one of the other islands, and then trying to wrest control is even more problematic than coming straight for Pearl if it is well stocked. Really, it is quite hard to do if the allied player has his or her mind about them - and doubly so after the first thirty days. After 90 days, I put Invasion Hawaii in the 'foolhardy' catagory. Alexander the Great or Themistocles could have done it, but a mere mortal like me...well you get the idea.

I personally have never lost it when playing someone else or succeeded to take it in a non Mod. Against the AI, well that is another thing entirely. To summarize, this is not my battle of choice where I am willing to expend Jap naval assets in total combat.

Is there anyone out there who typically succeeds in taking PH against an experienced human opponent?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Witppl,

Agreed it can be done and takes full committment.

Any bad luck or good play / deployment of early resources on the allied part will likely cause failure. That said it certainly is an attractive (and risky) target to go after.

And while taking out PH early is a huge win, it also slows down your advance in other, more critical areas. Against the AI, I'd be more than willing to try it, have done it in fact. Against a PBEM opponent, not so much.