Thank you Matrix, for no DRM

[killroyishere]

The only real issue with Steam would be about what just happened to Battlefront. If Steam gets hacked there will be millions of peeoed customers as many play Steam games they buy online like Left4Dead and other FPS and RTS games. They might be able to play the single player games offline with the offline steam feature but I'd say Steam is used a lot for multiplayer as well. This is where the advantage of owning the cd and the manual physically is better than direct download sites. If someone hacks some site it won't stop me from playing my game that I bought from them.

Another issue is say you buy a load of games and want to download them and Steam or any other direct download site gets hacked guess what? You aren't getting your game anytime soon. So many things can happen while your games are stored online and have to be activated online when it's so much easier just to own them physically and not have to worry about such.

My philosophy is I might buy from a direct download site but I better be able to burn the .exe to a disc and only have to activate it once when I buy it or I ain't buyin it at full retail cost I'll just wait till it's $5 or less like Shock Force from Battlefront.

[JudgeDredd]

I can play my games without Steam on. You do of course need Steam installed in order to buy the game...ergo you do need an internet connection. But lik I said - I can play my single player games offline.

*edit*
I wouldn't ncessarily recommend Steam, but I have a fair few games on it and have only ever had an issue with one of those...that was more to do with the crap game than Steam - my beef with Steam at the time was their "we sell it - get your support elsewhere" attitude.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm not entirely sure Steam is a method of DRM. I can play my Steam games offline...so there is no need to be connected afaik.

Wrong. Steam requires an Internet connection (broadband recommended).

Simply not true............[8|]


How many times are we going to go over this ?

[JudgeDredd]

lol Sarge - what's not true? Mine or Greybriars post?

[Sarge]

sry

Gray's.........[;)]

[JudgeDredd]

Yep - I did mean to say, although it states internet connection is required, that's purely because they sell games online. Any online sales company requires you to have an internet connection.

You of course need an internet connection to buy the games, but for single player games, it's not needed...not after purchase (at least the ones I've tried).

[SuluSea]

The reason I'm posting with this computer instead of my last one is because of DRM. Any company that uses a DRM scheme tells me they don't trust me and don't want my business.
 
Matrix Games is at the top of the heap if competitors treated their customer base as Matrix does they'd sell more products.

[V22 Osprey]

I'm also happy want to thank Matrix for no DRM. t makes it alot easier for me to enjoy my games.

I swear, Starforce was design by the devil himself.

[Zakhal]

ORIGINAL: Greybriar
Wrong. Steam requires an Internet connection (broadband recommended).

You kind of need internet connection to download digital games once you have bought them. So far steam hasnt started a postal service to mail the game data on a dvd. But once you have downloaded the game you can plug off internet and play the game offline.

[Sarge]

According to Gray,
digital download ,updates/patch, pbem I guess one could say Matrix requires internet connection ......[X(]

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

According to Gray,
digital download ,updates/patch, pbem I guess one could say Matrix requires internet connection ......[X(]

When Rome:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Medieval II:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Empire:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, couldn't install it, couldn't play it. Why? Internet connection with Steam required.

When I purchases a product, I expect to be able to use and enjoy the product when I choose to do so, without having to ask a 2nd party for permission first. And yes, I am aware of the "offline" option with Steam; I don't care, the fact I am forced to use Steam to play a game I purchased elsewhere means I will not purchase any products from companies using Steam.

As for Matrix, yes an internet connection is required, because Matrix is an on-line company. But once the game is purchased, I can play any time I choose. That's why I will continue to purchase games from Matrix.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Sarge

According to Gray,
digital download ,updates/patch, pbem I guess one could say Matrix requires internet connection ......[X(]

When Rome:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Medieval II:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Empire:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, couldn't install it, couldn't play it. Why? Internet connection with Steam required.

When I purchases a product, I expect to be able to use and enjoy the product when I choose to do so, without having to ask a 2nd party for permission first. And yes, I am aware of the "offline" option with Steam; I don't care, the fact I am forced to use Steam to play a game I purchased elsewhere means I will not purchase any products from companies using Steam.

As for Matrix, yes an internet connection is required, because Matrix is an on-line company. But once the game is purchased, I can play any time I choose. That's why I will continue to purchase games from Matrix.

Yes - and in the Total War instance that is a form of DRM (required to register the game with Steam) - but a constant connection is not required to play. So yes, when you buy a physical product, and it requires you authenticate it with Steam, then I agree that it is a form DRM.

Buying a game from Steam is simply buying from an online store though. You need an account to buy and download the game...that in itself isn't really DRM. If it required you to connect each time, then I would agree. But it doesn'tas far as I'm aware.

[joeblack1862]

I very rarely post on these forums but do read read them regularly.

I hope this is not too off topic but I just had to add what happened to me only yesterday with Steam (delete this post if it is):

I bought the game yesterday via Paypal and right at the end of the transaction a message came up to say that there was an issue and contact Steam Support. So I did the following:

1. Checked the My Games tab - no game.
2. Checked my bank account - the money has been deducted!
3. Checked Paypal - detailed invoice shows the money has been transferred from my bank account to Steam and the transaction is completed!
4. Raised a ticket with Steam Support and provided the unique id and invoice id, date and time of purchase provided by Paypal.
5. Raised a dispute with Paypal, this is at the "Talk to the Seller" stage, it has not been escalated. I did this because there is a time limit and Paypal recommends raising the dipute the minute the problem occurs.

I was hoping to play this game over the weekend, was looking forward to it. So now how long will I have to wait......

I dropped a message on to the Steam forums and was told not to escalate the paypal dispute as Steam would disable my account and all my games... how crass is that. I checked the forum and this had indeed happened to someone else.

Other companies where I have had this issue (Gamers Gate, Amazon for MP3 for example) had resolved a similar issues within a couple of hours. I think they realise that taking someone's money and then not providing the goods is pretty poor.

In my opinion, this makes Steam an even worse form of DRM as it can prevent you from playing a game or games without you having any say.

I guess I have learnt my lesson.

(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair)

[JudgeDredd]

Have you got a link to the forum where you were told not to escalate it or they'd disable your games? I'm not saying it didn't happen...on the contrary I want proof it did happen so that I can make a decision not to buy their games again. I refuse to buy from a company who comes across as heavy handed and if they did indeed say that to you, then I would consider never buying from them again. I just wouldn't feel comfotable buying from a company that hit you with a stick when you had a grievance

I've heard "stories" of these kinds of things taking place, but never saw them first hand. I've seldom gone on the Steam forums.

Again...a link and I can see for myself a company accused of bullying and then I can put them on my "not to buy from" list

I would like to point out that whilst your case is obviously valid, Steam, like any other company, is not immune to online purchasing issues. As much as I love Matrix and their games, there is a guy right now having issues trying to buy Distant Worlds (a couple of people actually)...so it happens to the best of companies. I also understand your grievance...nothing like buying a game to play and finding out you don't have it...especially at the weekend, but again I have to point out that I personally have never had an issue buying/downloading a game from Steam. That definitely doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that it won't happen to me in the future.

[joeblack1862]

Hi,

Sure, here it is:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... ?t=1203859

As I was told on my own thread, if you escalate the Paypal dispute it will get your account disabled. Here is my thread, I am trying to be calm in it:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... ?t=1205750

It appears they take your money and then have an issue with Paypal. If you take your money back they disable the account because they think it is fraud or something like that. I am not sure if it is bullying or just poor design of the way they do Paypal.

This just raises the point that the control of your account, and therefore access to your games is not with you. They can cut you off when they like. So it's a sort of morphing DRM. As someone else said, you never own your games on steam.

If you want, I'll keep you informed how I get on. I have to say the guys on the forum have been good, no flames just informative answers.

[Zakhal]

ORIGINAL: Joe Black
I very rarely post on these forums but do read read them regularly.

I hope this is not too off topic but I just had to add what happened to me only yesterday with Steam (delete this post if it is):

If the problem happened just yesterday aka friday and today is saturday..well you have hardly waited for 24 hours and its weekend.

Last time I had problems buying games was from regural gamestore through postal service. Problem was that the english postal service went to strike and they threw the postal sack that included my game into the north sea.

I waited for month to get the game and then several more days to get my money back through customer service. I never got angry over it because I had to wait more than few hours.

ORIGINAL: Joe Black
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... ?t=1205750

Just few comments from the thread:

You'll need to tell Paypal to reimburse Valve for the amount of DOW2. Once done, Valve will reactivate your account. This is a Paypal issue more than anything.

I bought all my games via paypal and nothing went wrong and I have 50 games.

Paypal took the money from your account and most likely delayed the payment. When you escalated your issue with Paypal, they withdrew the payment and Valve disabled your account temporarily in case it was fraud.

So you have to tell Paypal to actually pay Valve the amount you specified. Once done, they will reactivate your account.

I myself link my Paypal account to my bank account, so I never get such issues.

To them, they didn't receive the money, so it's not their problem to solve that issue. When they finally received it from Paypal, it got withdrawn. In order to protect the consumer, it disables the account.

Its entirely rational as it helps prevent fraud from hacked accounts.

[joeblack1862]

You missed the bit I said at the bottom of that post [:)]

"(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair) "

But thanks for the input, you are right ofcourse, so I will see what happens. Don't want to take this off topic any further.

[Greybriar]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm not entirely sure Steam is a method of DRM. I can play my Steam games offline...so there is no need to be connected afaik.

Wrong. Steam requires an Internet connection (broadband recommended).

Simply not true............[8|]


How many times are we going to go over this ?

Yes, it is true. I was referring to Steam being a DRM, as in the need for Steam to be installed before you can play a retail boxed game, e.g. Empire: Total War.

[Zakhal]

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

You missed the bit I said at the bottom of that post [:)]

"(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair) "

No problem. I work partly in online customer service. I somtimes deal with very angry customers so Im keen on the importance of patience in cases like this.

Im sure your case gets solved once you give it a little time. If not then please inform us so we know the dangers of buying from steam with paypal.

[joeblack1862]

I hope you don't mind if I add my own opinion on what is DRM. I always look at it as something that prevents you from installing or playing a game without additional actions or software that is not required for the game to work correctly and is designed to prevent the bulk copying and distribution of the game by others. This doesn't mean all DRM is bad.

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. is DRM - you have to install the drivers to get the game to work.
Steam is DRM - You need it to install the games, you cannot install with an interenet connection to Steam.
Gamers gate is DRM - The game is "activated" when it is installed via gamers gate. You cannot install without an internet connection to GG.
Matrix is DRM - you need to supply a serial number to install the game (painless process and the best option for the user (other than no serial))
GOG is not DRM - dowload the files and you can install and play again and again. No requirements but to have the installation files.

For me, it's the way DRM is implemented that is the issue, not the DRM itself.

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. - Never on my system.
Steam - I'll put up with it (as long as they process my orders correctly [;)])
Gamers gate - No problem with this.
Matrix - No problem.

I should add I only buy "DRM Free" games from Steam and Gamers Gate as a lot of the stuff they sell can also come with Securom, Tages, Starforce.