Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

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Misconduct
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Misconduct »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's interesting to see the interplay of the CAP and Rest settings. I've just set CAP % accordingly and watched fatigue from turn to turn. The only time I've seen fatigue jump is when CAP % is high or a squadron escorts a raid (mostly say engaging in combat and/or at long range).

So far I've only used Rest for things that are otherwise 100%, like supply or troop transport missions. There it is definitely helpful. Early in AE the Rest percentage only applied to combat missions. Fatigue in transports carrying supplies would sky out and drive up ops losses. That meant lots of managing transport squadrons turn to turn. Now I can set a squadron to transport supplies with 10 or 20% Rest and fatigue stays acceptable, and ops losses low.

Right now I have roughly 20% rest for most fighter squadrons using CAP and so far no real problems from it, Its not really Fatigue I worry about with the rest but Moral, seems if I don't have some rest% then Moral seems to dip to far and pilots won't take off.
as for the cap situation on Moresby, since I added the squadron of P39s the AI is sending planes to Milne Bay to attack my carriers instead, im guessing the CAP% is to high at moresby so they won't launch.

I figured a system out by having 3 carriers together, Lexington with its Buffalos I set for 6k, F3F's are all at 14 and 21k respectably, so far nothing broke through their cap either.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by John Lansford »

If I don't set Rest to a small amount, I notice that fatigue builds up quickly on any squadron performing lots of missions.  Even 10% appears to help.
 
My P-39's at Port Moresby were set at 10k and were so effective at killing Bettys on anti-shipping missions that the AI eventually gave up.  I put the Kittyhawks at 15-20k like you did and they kept the Zeros off the lower P-39's and attacked the level bombers too.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

Another question is... is the "rest" setting applied to the planes, or the pilots? 

I overstock all my squadrons, keep my rest setting at zero percent, and overall fatigue doesn't rise all that much in my squadrons.  I haven't checked the pilot list to see if some pilots are heavily fatigued and others rested, though.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.
 
I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this. 
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Misconduct »

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this. 

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

Was it a night time attack? 

I ask, because even with radar directing you to the target, on a full moon, it's not easy to spot another aircraft at night.  Throw in some rain, a 10k foot altitude difference, and it seems plausible.

If it were daytime, yeah 10k foot difference, light clouds... nothing like a cloud layer between 8-10k to throw off spotting the betties.  May just have been a case of "Cap was above the clouds, the strike was below it", so unless the CAP gets a lucky hole-in-the-clouds, it's not going to see the netties.

As far as the strike attacking the ships, I can buy that the netties spotted the fleet.  If the fleet was moving, they'd all be giving off wakes in the moonlight, which is like having a really big "hey look at me, over here" flag. 
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by morganbj »

I think that if there is a problem, and I'm not sure there is, it's in the amount of variability of results that result from die rolls, everything else being the same.  I've rerun several turns here and there to get an idea how much variablility there is when the situsation is exactly the same during the turn.  For example, I ran the PH raid maybe a dozen times and found that BB sinkings ranged from none to eight.  I think, though, that the variablity evens out over the course of a few turns.
 
That said, I have also noticed that when much smaller engegements are rerun, the results seem to be fairly consistent.  So, when 20 Betties hit a port, roughly the same number will be lost almost every time.
 
This leads me to conclude that when there are multiple "phases" in a single turn in a very large enganement(e.g., the PH raid), once things go bad for a player in the early ones, they go worse and worse and additional phases are processed.  But, the opposite is also seems to be true.  When things go good early on, they go good in all subsequent phases.  This is strong evidence that the combat's effects of the first phase have an effect on all subsequent phases.  This is as it should be I suppose, but maybe it's exaggerated a little too much by the combat models.  I don't know.  But, if this is true, it would tend to increase the total variability as turns are rerun.
 
But, I always like to read what others are seeing, because it helps me put what I see into a larger context.  So, keep on posting Misconduct, and anybody else, too.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by freeboy »

not at all relevent to your actuall issue, BUT are you counterattacking the base the betties flew from?
I as a rule bomb nightly in the early war, even if I hit nothing it seems to wear down the enemy, and soon those planes at night actually hit something and betties become much much less efective, as the game progresses daytime raids work too, as my best fighter plan is my b 24's with huge numbers of a2a kills, playing pbem scen 2 as allies..
So sorry for giving you unsolicited advice and I feel your pain, this game is a geartbreaker, BUT it works both ways as strange thing just happen...
good luck and again, betties? go kill there homes!
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Kwik E Mart »

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

the conclusion drawn from this comparison is really not logical...

consider:
1) size of a plane compared to size of a cruiser
2) cruisers in a fixed geographic location (port)
3) enemy bogies are moving thru 3 dimentional space (which, by the way, is probably full of clouds and rain) and cruisers are probably stationary
4) radar probably has some degree of error in altitude, bearing and distance
5) i'm not sure what the moonlight has to do with this...was the attack at night?
6) even if the moon was near full (97%), that doesn't necessarily mean any light is getting thru a cloud deck or rain showers
7) the hex is big...it might be raining on the bearing that the bogies are reported, but clear over the cruisers

one other thing that comes to mind is if the CAP range is set to zero, does that allow airborne CAP to be vectored out beyond the CAP'd hex? IOW, detection was 34km, which i believe would be outside the hex and might hinder the effectiveness of the CAP...but this is conjecture on my part...


edit: AcePylut, you are telepathic! [;)]
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Cmdrcain »

In AE Cap is different, even if you set to 50 pct Cap, you WILL NOT have always 50 pct of planes on cap

Theres a number always up, others on ready, rest take time to scramble..

So if raid detected late, the cap up engages, the ready cap can get going, the rest may not get in planes to go till bombs start falling..

in WITP, you had the set pct of cap always up... it created also uber cap

AE, cap is flexiable and thats why you see a few engaging then your cap gets reinforced...

IF raid is spotted far enough out.

also as to any TF in hex... plain Cap doesn't cover Tf full... you should if fleets not disbanded have a pct of LONG Range cap
you had only cap 9over base) and rest, no LR cap for covering the whole hex, the TF could been steaming 10-12 miles out
unless it was docked..

Even if docked, plain cap engages raiders... theres then no cap tasked to cover the fleet/ships specific...thats LR cap..


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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

I don't believe radar, at the time, had altitude capabilities.  I think it was more like "there's a big blob over there at bearing 330 at 50NM" sort of radar... not, "there's 100 2 engine planes and 45 Single engine planes flying at 300kias at 12,147ft ASL, bearing 330, range 50.123NM, heading 150"
 
And I like your thinking Kwik E.

Being a private pilot I know how "clear" clear weather can be.  "Clear" can be clear with 3 mile visibility, it can be clear with unlimited visibility.  Clear does not mean 'crystal clear' with no wind.  Clear weather just means that there isn't more then 10% cloud coverage.  Ground Haze is not considered cloud coverage, nor is fog, it's considered "Clear".
 
We need to break the mold that people think, when they see "clear" weather.  We need to "get into peoples heads" that weather is imho THE most important thing, the thing that can be used to justify a great many "uncoordinated" results. 
 
For I have flown in "clear" weather that made me sweat a little on my navigation.  I"ve dead-reckoned, and the results did not put me in the exact location I wanted.  This was all having a great weather forecast, accurate maps, Detection level 10 on the target airfield, slow aircraft that's forgiving of mistakes, backup navigation called "GPS", VOR, Loran. 

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF  (Automatic Direction finder.  Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing.  I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions. 
 
All these factors are in "our collective conscience" of flying in 2010.  We need to break that mold and think in terms of 1940 flying, not 2010 flying. 
 
Add in this little case of "enemy trying to kill me", and things just got 100% more difficult.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Kwik E Mart »

ORIGINAL: AcePylut 

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF  (Automatic Direction finder.  Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing.  I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions. 

it also can be the recipe for ditching or aborting due to bingo fuel, since even though a pilot is keeping the nose pointed at the ADF station, he may be taking a circuitous (and thus longer) route to the target due to strong cross winds...
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

Exactly... if you keep the nose pointed at the ADF in a crosswind, you end up flying a route that lookes like the nike swoop.

If you know, exactly, the winds aloft, you can fly into the wind slightly to fly a straight line.  I.e. your nose might point at 30degrees, but when you factor in a wind blowing, your flight path might be along a 0 degree heading.

That's "knowing" the winds aloft.  If you don't, and they didn't back then, you just kinda play guesswork... and if you don't guess right, you're not going to appear 500nm downrange at point X at exactly Time Y:yy:zz

Couple that with "no adf" over enemy territory, just dead-reckoning (or, should the flight be over land that you know, you can use known landmarks to make corrections) - and it's just not "easy" to end up at the right place and the right time.

Easier to do in Europe, as we had accurate maps of everything Europe, and the European theater we were flying over was about the size of Borneo (based on a very unscientific "look at Europe, look at Borneo" on Google Earth guesstimate)
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this. 

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.

You've got to be kidding me. If I find out this was at night....
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Misconduct »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this. 

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.

You've got to be kidding me. If I find out this was at night....

this was not a night time raid, I only posted it because someone mentioned in another thread to post all information concerning day/night time conditions so I did as well.
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Misconduct »

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I don't believe radar, at the time, had altitude capabilities.  I think it was more like "there's a big blob over there at bearing 330 at 50NM" sort of radar... not, "there's 100 2 engine planes and 45 Single engine planes flying at 300kias at 12,147ft ASL, bearing 330, range 50.123NM, heading 150"

And I like your thinking Kwik E.

Being a private pilot I know how "clear" clear weather can be.  "Clear" can be clear with 3 mile visibility, it can be clear with unlimited visibility.  Clear does not mean 'crystal clear' with no wind.  Clear weather just means that there isn't more then 10% cloud coverage.  Ground Haze is not considered cloud coverage, nor is fog, it's considered "Clear".

We need to break the mold that people think, when they see "clear" weather.  We need to "get into peoples heads" that weather is imho THE most important thing, the thing that can be used to justify a great many "uncoordinated" results. 

For I have flown in "clear" weather that made me sweat a little on my navigation.  I"ve dead-reckoned, and the results did not put me in the exact location I wanted.  This was all having a great weather forecast, accurate maps, Detection level 10 on the target airfield, slow aircraft that's forgiving of mistakes, backup navigation called "GPS", VOR, Loran. 

I've flown "in the clouds" (i.e. instruments) only using an ADF  (Automatic Direction finder.  Basically a needle that points to AM radio stations, like the Japs homed in on at Hawaii)... and not only is that difficult to do, it's very mentally taxing.  I can imagine that it's very very easy to get separated from another aircraft in such conditions. 

All these factors are in "our collective conscience" of flying in 2010.  We need to break that mold and think in terms of 1940 flying, not 2010 flying. 

Add in this little case of "enemy trying to kill me", and things just got 100% more difficult.

I was thinking of the same thing, however what exactly are the game mechanics for "clear skies in hex" what does that mean? unlimited visibility? Im talking in game wise to clarify. What about clouds? Rain?

I searched the manual and it only states that weather is Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, Thunderstorms.
Clearly thunderstorms mean planes are not flying, but is there a percentage of aircraft that will take off or is it basically a dice roll and you have to find out?
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by AcePylut »

The answer to all your questions... is that I don't have a clue :)
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Misconduct »

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

The answer to all your questions... is that I don't have a clue :)

Thats why I keep asking the questions I am beyond clueless LOL
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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

Post by Dili »

It could be a communication failure.
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