B-29... good investment or waste of money?

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JWE
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
This is why I don't buy into the modern day questioning of dropping the atomic bombs. In the modern context it sounds unreasonable, but in the context of the norms and situation of WW2 it makes sense.

Had we invaded and suffered the losses we would have and it was later discovered we has it and didn't use it, I think the public uproar would have been defeaning.
Yes, sir. Given the mind set, at the time, the Atomic bomb was simply a weapon. It is only with benefit of our contemporary hindsight that we now understand the true implications of using this as a weapon.

I understand that Oppenheimer and others saw Chesterton's Shiva, the Devourer of Worlds; and I would likely have been there too. But there is a disconnect between expressions of cultural philosophy and cultural survival imperitives.

The whole world, at the time, was a bubbling pot of political change: there were monarchists, there were oligarchs, there were democrats, and of the democrats there were socialists and capitalists and national socialists, and frikkin bears, oh my. The hearts and minds of the Euro (and Japanese) masses were not far away from conformance to a monarchical establishment, so a national socialist structure wouldn't be all that different. So what the hell to do to make your way in the turmoil of the early 20th century? Lots of people starving, hoping, thinking, remembering, believing, wanting, and caring. Woof !!

So that's kind of the environment, but I'm probably internalising less than 10% of what really was. So there once was a world that our generation has absolutely no clue about. I doubt there's a thousand people in the whole country who know that Chesterton isn't a cigarette.

Life is perception; and it's the perception of them that we give the 'scale' to.

[edit] sorry didn't see Joe's post. Please ignore everything. Joe, should I delete this post?
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by sfbaytf »

Bombing of cites with the intention of killing civilians was highly controversial back then. After Dresden the public in Britian and the US was horrified. Bomber Harris was often referee to as butcher Harris in he RAF and other circles. I think with the benefit of hindsight if given he choice we probably would have pursued a different course, but we didn't have the knowledge we have today. The airplane was still a relatively new weapon and theories behind it's use were still being worked out.

I think he bombing of oil targets were the most productive use of strategic bombers- once they and the fighters neutralized the enemy airpower. In the Pacific it was different. I think the mining of ports was the most effective. The jet stream over Japan made precision bombing very difficult. I don't know offhand the use of strategic bombers hitting airfields to neutralize kamikazies, but Im sure once the carnage at Okinawa took place it became a prioriy.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: JWE

[[edit] sorry didn't see Joe's post. Please ignore everything. Joe, should I delete this post?

Without touching on the political, i'd recommend Richard Frank's "Downfall" in regards to the A-Bomb question. It's a thought provoker.

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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Imo no, but iirc it was pitched to the army in '39 or '40 and nobody knew capabilities of the 4es at the time and there was no way to predict what the situation would be when they eventually went into service. It was the next logical step in bomber design (faster, higher flying, etc.) and too much institutional support for such a program for it to die absent a demonstrated lack of need for the aircraft or a complete production failure.


In addition, you need to remember that the President of the US was facinated with the "potential" of air power, and a strong supporter of it's programs.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Imo no, but iirc it was pitched to the army in '39 or '40 and nobody knew capabilities of the 4es at the time and there was no way to predict what the situation would be when they eventually went into service. It was the next logical step in bomber design (faster, higher flying, etc.) and too much institutional support for such a program for it to die absent a demonstrated lack of need for the aircraft or a complete production failure.


In addition, you need to remember that the President of the US was facinated with the "potential" of air power, and a strong supporter of it's programs.

Good point.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by freeboy »

One note of difference when we look at bombing industry in Japan vs Germany, the Japanees had lots of cottage industry supportingthe war effort, small factories in and around wooden building, giving a added factor in a firestorm bombing campeign..
back on track;
 My thoughts are it is truly hard to say that without a bomber which was used to  effectively shortened the war with its  and the long range capabilities the allies would be better off... sure, we could have bult more of lessable planes, but really we had HUGE amounts of surplus atteh end of the war... ships, planes tanks... it was not the lack of industry, but rather in its employment that may or may not have shortened the war....
So, to make a convoluted argument crystal clear, my vote is on YES the B 29 was worth it, with a large asterisk after the answer.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by fbs »

ORIGINAL: JWE
Given the mind set of a 1920-1940 military professional, and the social/philosophical/cultural environment of the times, there ain't no way, that nobody, nohow, would ever keep the B-29 from development.


That's true, but the same can be said of the battleship - no way anyone could stop the building of the dozens of ultimately white elephants between 1920 and 1950.

I don't question heavy bombers as the B-17, B-24 or Lancaster, as anyone would rather have the means of delivering a big payload than not. My question is the actual benefit of spending vast sums to build an incredibly advanced bomber, a generation ahead of its competition, which became effective only after the war was already won.

Putting it the other way around, the B-29 cost $630K each (plus development cost, in the order of a few hundred million), a B-24 cost $300K, and a Gato SS cost around $1M in WW2 dollars. The development cost alone of the B-29 would easily cover building 100-200 submarines, and with a rate of three B-29 = two Gato SS, I'd go with the submarines as having a much better cost/benefit -- specially against a country completely dependent on sea lanes.

Of course, these points are moot, as nothing could have stopped the B-29 program, specially when there was plenty of money available to go around.


Thanks,
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by USS Henrico »

The B-24s (and B-17s once transferred from Europe) could have bombed Japan as the B-29 did, but they would have had to been based closer because of their shorter range. Thus the bombing of Japan would have started later and the war probably would have been lengthened by several months IMO. As has been mentioned, the B-29 led to the strategic bombers that came later, so something similar to the B-29 would have been developed eventually.

Note that the B-29 did have a competing program, the B-32 Dominator, which only started arriving as the war ended, so it is a forgotten sister. The B-32 does show up in AE.

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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by JohnDillworth »

The B-29 effect is not modeled well in the game. The pilots have low experience levels, the Japanese have an abnormal number of pilots and planes whilst the allies are limited to historic numbers. This allows an imbalance that makes them much less effective then they were in real life. Also the Mariana's airfields are not sized correctly. Although Tinian was THE LARGEST AIRFIELD IN THE WORLD in 1945 the developers saw fit to only allow it as a level 7. Even with overstacking it is not possible in the game to model historic strike sizes with the frequency that occurred that in real life. They are really not much of a factor in the game.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by bklooste »

Since the B29s didnt do anything the B17s from Europe couldnt....  yes. On Feb 45 just move 8th Airforce to the Pacific.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Since the B29s didnt do anything the B17s from Europe couldnt....  yes. On Feb 45 just move 8th Airforce to the Pacific.


Actually, they did..., they flew from the Marianas to Japan and back. Also, the war in Europe wasn't over until May of 1945.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

The B-29 effect is not modeled well in the game. The pilots have low experience levels, the Japanese have an abnormal number of pilots and planes whilst the allies are limited to historic numbers. This allows an imbalance that makes them much less effective then they were in real life. Also the Mariana's airfields are not sized correctly. Although Tinian was THE LARGEST AIRFIELD IN THE WORLD in 1945 the developers saw fit to only allow it as a level 7. Even with overstacking it is not possible in the game to model historic strike sizes with the frequency that occurred that in real life. They are really not much of a factor in the game.


Agreed. Starting in 1944, American Engineers should be able to convert anything but an atoll into a level 10 Airfield.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by Anthropoid »

I've been reading some of these wiki pages on all these Bees (B-29, B-36, B-47, etc.) and it sounds to me like any effort to answer the question of whether any one of them was a "good investment" can only be really answered post-hoc. So in effect, unless they turned out to be a bad investment, they were a good investment by simple virtue of the chance that not exploring these developments might have been a bad lack of investment.

It sounds like the B-29 had a very troubled development, serious problems with engine design and became "obsolete" pretty quickly as a result of jet fighters. But given how young aviation was at the time, and how rapidly it evolved, it seems like any new system that was not a complete 'loss' must have been a good investment.

The B-29 stayed in service till 1960, served in two wars, dropped a great deal of destruction in general, and in particular two of the most famous bombs ever (which helped bring a resistant regime to unconditional surrender), had significantly better range than any other aircraft of its day, and was signficantly advanced for its day (thus driving the evolution of other later models I would think).

I don't see how it could be seen as a 'bad' investment. Sounds to me like the B-36 and B-47 were more sketchy, though even with them, as intermediate forms in a transformation from prop to jet and very high altitude very long range how could you argue they were 'bad' investments? Without the B-36 would there have been a B-47? Without the B-47 would a B-52 have been possible?
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by ChickenOfTheSea »

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I've been reading some of these wiki pages on all these Bees (B-29, B-36, B-47, etc.) and it sounds to me like any effort to answer the question of whether any one of them was a "good investment" can only be really answered post-hoc. So in effect, unless they turned out to be a bad investment, they were a good investment by simple virtue of the chance that not exploring these developments might have been a bad lack of investment.

It sounds like the B-29 had a very troubled development, serious problems with engine design and became "obsolete" pretty quickly as a result of jet fighters. But given how young aviation was at the time, and how rapidly it evolved, it seems like any new system that was not a complete 'loss' must have been a good investment.

The B-29 stayed in service till 1960, served in two wars, dropped a great deal of destruction in general, and in particular two of the most famous bombs ever (which helped bring a resistant regime to unconditional surrender), had significantly better range than any other aircraft of its day, and was signficantly advanced for its day (thus driving the evolution of other later models I would think).

I don't see how it could be seen as a 'bad' investment. Sounds to me like the B-36 and B-47 were more sketchy, though even with them, as intermediate forms in a transformation from prop to jet and very high altitude very long range how could you argue they were 'bad' investments? Without the B-36 would there have been a B-47? Without the B-47 would a B-52 have been possible?

Good points here. My home town was a B-47 base when I was growing up (yeah, I'm a geezer) and many of my classmates were children of B-47 crew members. Unfortunately, some of them lost their fathers due to crashes in training missions. I got to sit in the cockpit of one when I was in 5th grade, but they didn't let me take off[:D][:D]. A lot of these early jets owed a lot (positive and negative) to captured German designs and designers. The development of the B-52 owes a lot to experiences with the B-47 and how long have B-52's been in service?

Edited to point out geezerness.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by CarnageINC »

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Since the B29s didnt do anything the B17s from Europe couldnt....  yes. On Feb 45 just move 8th Airforce to the Pacific.

Ahh....what about the A bombs? Nothing but a 29 could carry one....the Lancaster probably could of if the bomb bays were modified.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by YankeeAirRat »

Even the B-29's that were used by the 509th Composite were modified to cary both the "Little Boy" and "Fat Man" bombs. They were not stock off the factory floor B-29's, they had all thier defensive guns except the tail guns and most of the armor was stripped out so the planes could manuver better and go faster so they could turn away from the bomb drop.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Yes, it was the grandfather to the modern cold war strategic bombers, B-47, 50, 52, 58, etc.  Without out them our capability to project nuclear power would of allowed the Soviets and Chinese to run more freely in the world.  Nations must force other nations to react to what their doing, there by spending resources that most of them can ill afford to do.  In most conflicts new weapons or tactics almost always have had a deciding factor in who will win.


I think you have made the most important point. The B29 campaign vs Japan was not really sucessful. So unsucessful that they had to resort to area firebombing as a last resort. While the results were spectacular it is doubtful that the result were worth it. It is argued that the fire raids were wiping out industry as well as killing people but the sub war and mining campaign had already made those factories redundant as they had nothing to produce.

However, you have to build the plane as it the next step to the great planes that followed post war. You can't stand back and watch. When you have the assets, you build it. That is how you stay a superpower.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by V22 Osprey »

I think the B-29s are well worth, as previously stated the extreme range and altitude makes the B-29 pretty unstoppable late-war. The B-29 has allot of technological goodies that other aircraft of the time didn't have.(except for the jet engine, of course.)
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by comte »

B-29's are always a good investment cmon pressurized cabins you can't go wrong with those.
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RE: B-29... good investment or waste of money?

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Since the B29s didnt do anything the B17s from Europe couldnt....  yes. On Feb 45 just move 8th Airforce to the Pacific.


Actually, they did..., they flew from the Marianas to Japan and back. Also, the war in Europe wasn't over until May of 1945.


the question is if you would need 8th Airforce in 45 in Europe anyway. Bombing Dresden at the end didn´t make much sense and is probably less justified than dropping the A-bombs. But that leads to the question if 8th Airforce would be needed in mid 45 in the Pacific either as you won´t have them there in Feb when you withdraw them in Europe at the end of Jan. [:D]
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