PBEM support?

[Michael T]

Same here. ASL forever. We have a small group of devoted boardgamers in Queensland Australia. You know the problem with PC gaming comes down to 3 things, little or no social interaction, they are always bug riddled and you can't change any rules if you think they suck. None of those problems with boardgames. Still I love my PC gaming as well. But time after time I keep going back to the stable and relatively bug free environment of HPS games, come on Matrix can you actually deliver a game that might be bug free after version 2.218? I am hopeful that WITE might be the first....of course there is absolutely no hope it will work properly with version 1.0. But I will buy it anyway and go along for the ride. To get back on topic, please make a simple and reliable PBEM system in the game. Its the only way I play. [&o]

[PyleDriver]

Well we have the big bugs out. Guys like Ron, Don and Lee go after the ones the crawl in the dark. Like proper air support, production and supply, ect, ect ...These guys are after it...Then theres Leo, this guy does sub tests on tests...Then theres Andy, trust me never play this guy, he'll spank you worst than a French whore. He's our bug manager...So were doing alot of work for a small group. My guess, it will be a great PBEM game...

[Michael T]

Well that sounds encouraging. But all of my previous Matrix purchases EIA, BTR/BOB and TOW are all gathering dust waiting for a future patch that will make playing PBEM (without bugs and/or other associated problems) possible, dare I say pleasurable. I hope WITE breaks the trend....

[Berkut]

Well, think of it like this:

ASL was pretty damn buggy - it received about 800 patches, depending on how you are counting.

But there is buggy, and then there is balanced. They are by no means the same thing. Plenty of games end up pretty bug free, very few ever end up being well balanced once the sharks get their hands on them.

Anyone up for an ACTS Paths of Glory game?

[Zovs]

ASL was pretty damn buggy

This does not even make any sense. ASL (Advanced Squad Leader for the uneducated) is a board war game, using cardboard marker chits and paper rules and charts that the players must actually read and consult and to play the game, not to mention various modules that include more chits (counters), rules, charts, scenario cards and lets not forget the geometric maps.

Has there been errata, yes, did MMP after AH went out of business create a 2nd edition of the rule book, yes. Is it 'buggy' no. Only software can really contain bugs, written words or manual war games can't in that traditional sense. They may have clarification or errta but there are no bugs in paper war games.

Oh, ASL has never had any 'patches' so you really must be talking about some thing completely different.

What I am referring to is the following:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php

I have no idea what your talking about in your references to ASL (being buggy and 800 patches).

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

ASL was pretty damn buggy

This does not even make any sense. ASL (Advanced Squad Leader for the uneducated) is a board war game, using cardboard marker chits and paper rules and charts that the players must actually read and consult and to play the game, not to mention various modules that include more chits (counters), rules, charts, scenario cards and lets not forget the geometric maps.

Has there been errata, yes, did MMP after AH went out of business create a 2nd edition of the rule book, yes. Is it 'buggy' no. Only software can really contain bugs, written words or manual war games can't in that traditional sense. They may have clarification or errta but there are no bugs in paper war games.

Oh, ASL has never had any 'patches' so you really must be talking about some thing completely different.

What I am referring to is the following:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php

I have no idea what your talking about in your references to ASL (being buggy and 800 patches).

I know exactly what I am talking about - I've been playing ASL since it was just SL.

It was most certainly "buggy", in that it had errors. It had rules that were poorly written, and made no sense. It has gone through literally hundreds of revisions since the game of Squad Leader was released some 20something years ago. Or is it 30something now?

Those rules have been changed time and time and time again. Those cardboard counters have been released with the wrong information on them, and been re-released. The maps have been re-done, even, and they've released patches for the maps. The charts have been revised. In fact, every single piece of "stuff" that constitutes what we now know as "ASL" has probably been changed at some point. Some of that is adding new stuff, and plenty of it has been fixing broken stuff (bugs).

I've been playing ASL for a very, very long time, and own a couple thousand dollars (roughly) worth of ASL "stuff". It has most certainly contained bugs, defined as unintended or broken systems that are later "fixed" through some revisions of the rules of components.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

Sorry I am an old ASL junkie (started playing Squad Leader in 1978 and switched to ASL in 1987) its like an old mistress. Once your in with a good bunch of guys we all pretty much know the LOS from map to map at a glance and rarely string it, also there is usually enough fellows around so that looking up rules in the mighty tomb is also a rarity.

Don't think I'll ever get a divorce from the old gal... 

"Luke it is your destiny ...." I played more SL than ASL. Bought SL when it first came out and was a SL junkie. But I got tired of the maps, same ole terrain to fight over. I assume there are more maps now but nothing beats a map editor in a computer. CM allows you to play operations, multiple battles which are really cool. Battle are about 40 min real time where turns are 1 min, you plot your moves per turn. *sigh* Nothing like losing that Tiger to the US bazooka team when they get a chance rear turret hit. I even checked the Tiger rear turret armor thickness and bazooka penetration, and dam it was modelled correctly. Didn't have that in SL. But ... back to the thread

An yes PBEM is the only way to fly ... getting back to the thread title that is.

[Michael T]

But when you had your Tiger knocked out did your opponent get to see your face? Thats half the fun. [:D] Seriously each method, Boardgame or PC has its pro's and con's. My point is that anyone can fix a 'bug' in written rules to his or her satisfaction and continue playing. That ain't so in a PC game. And bye the way, do you think CM will still be around in 30 years? SL/ASL has already passed that milestone and continues on....

[Zovs]

I know exactly what I am talking about - I've been playing ASL since it was just SL.

Well here we completely disagree. I started playing Squad Leader in 1978, and went through the usual cycle of COI, COD and GI. When ASL came out in 1986 I switched a year later.

ASL is not buggy and can never be because it's not a software program. By definition (which you seem to keep missing) bugs are only in software. Just because you don't understand the rules does not make it 'buggy' I currently attend 2 ASL clubs and play with 4-18 ASL players and we have been playing ASL for years with no 'bugs'.

Lets drop the discussion of ASL here please and keep it on WitE PBEM.

[Fred98]

Face to face across a table is the best way to play any game.

I have a vision that one day we can project a game onto a wall the size of a squash court and play face to face.

For fog of war: The Axis wear grey glasses, The Allies wear green glasses and the Soviets wear red glases. And then we can only see our own troops on the map.

Have a nice day ![8D]


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[Michael T]

hey Joe, don't suppose you know any wargamers up on the Gold Coast do you? We are always looking for extra players.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

I know exactly what I am talking about - I've been playing ASL since it was just SL.

Well here we completely disagree. I started playing Squad Leader in 1978, and went through the usual cycle of COI, COD and GI. When ASL came out in 1986 I switched a year later.

ASL is not buggy and can never be because it's not a software program. By definition (which you seem to keep missing) bugs are only in software. Just because you don't understand the rules does not make it 'buggy' I currently attend 2 ASL clubs and play with 4-18 ASL players and we have been playing ASL for years with no 'bugs'.

Lets drop the discussion of ASL here please and keep it on WitE PBEM.

Parting thoughts ... if face to face SOOOO great why bother with this game? Just haul out War in the East, SPI, and go at it!!

[Aurelian]

Board wargames can be buggy. Thus the exsistence of errata

[Michael T]

We are playing Fire in the East/Scorched Earth right now. Much fun. ASL after we finish. We get the best of both worlds.

[Captain B]

Capt Cliff,

I would need to have an addition put on my house (or at least take over one of the kids rooms) to play SPI's War in the East...Did that in College for most of 1977 and 1978...we had a dedicated room in one of the study halls. While I enjoyed that immensely, methinks that this will be much better...like I don't have to worry about the russian player deciding to go nuclear and knocking all of the tables over when Moscow fell![:D]

[Zovs]

I have converted my entire garage into a game room. I have room to setup all my ASL stuff, plus one big game like SPI's War in Europe or War in the East (WitE is best since its only 4 maps). I also store all 270+ of my board war games out there.

I play PC war games all the time (in the winter the garage is a bit too cold -10).

I started board war gaming back in 1977/8 and PC war gaming around 1991 I enjoy both. I don't like it when PC guys bash board war games and I don't like it when board gamers bash PC games. Its a nice balance.

It's nice to disappear into a PC war game such as this fine War in the East and likewise go to a friends house and find that 4 hours disappeared while enjoying the game.

Now to get back on topic, PBEM Support? Yes there will be PBEM support.

[FM WarB]

I visited SPi's HQ in NYC back in the day; ahh the fine aroma of stale pizza, cigarettes and various beverages in their playtesting room!

I preferred DNO/Unentscheiden to their WitE, though.

[Neal_MLC]

There is nothing like pushing cardboard around and arguing over rules[8D]

[Berkut]

Any of you nostalgic for the days of board wargaming, there is actually a very much alive internet based PBEM/live wargaming commnity out there for cardboard wargames.

With Cyberboard/Vassal available, there is plenty of wargaming action to be had. The "new" genre of Card Driven Wargames like Paths of Glory, Wilderness War, For the People, Barbarossa to Berlin, Triumph of Chaos and others enjoy lots of chances for some very good PBEM gaming.

[Shupov]

In WitE PBEM will I be able to see my opponent's combat log from his attacks? I would like to be able to see the blow-by-blow sequence with the enemy's equipment types. When you get a WiR PBEM all you get is a screen showing total numbers of aircraft, tanks, infantry, guns on each side and their losses. In WiR the attacker gets more information than the defender, which doesn't seem fair.