Low naval attacks

[spence]

It seems all torpedo bombers are armed with laser guided bombs (Allies too but their experience is lower so it is not quite as pronounced).

But laser guided bombs aside, I'd be very surprised if anybody can come up with enough successful torpedo attacks by Kates against any target during the entire course of the war to add up to even 1 dozen torpedo hits. As a start they scored 7 torpedo hits on 3 CVs (2 on Lexington, 2 on Yorktown, and 3 on Hornet)....The Midway fiasco was not a singular event. The KB's torpedo squadrons practiced the same debacle twice before June 4, 1942 and missed several opportunities to attack Allied ships as a result(the dive bombers saved KB's reputation). Nobody noticed the first two times but third time payed for all.

On the other hand PB4Ys and other USN level bombers sank scores if not hundreds of Japanese merchant ships with bombs making low level attacks.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The aircraft itself has no bearing on if an air-launched weapon hits and causes damage.

The chances to hit are determined by the pilot skill and the weapon attributes like accuracy.

Aye.., and there's the rub. Kate crews were skilled and dedicated in the torpedo attack role (though not as successful as as the game would have you believe). But that doesn't mean diddly in the level bomber role (a role they only used to attack immobile targets, and with no great success).

By combining the "pilot skill" rating for "low level naval attack", we've created a monster. If this is the way the game is going to function, then the "pilot skill" ratings for naval attacks should AVERAGE the success ratings for torpedo attacks and low level naval bombing (Creating an overall reduction across the board). Instead we've taken the best possible interpretation and spread it across two totally different activities.

[Heeward]

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The aircraft itself has no bearing on if an air-launched weapon hits and causes damage.

The chances to hit are determined by the pilot skill and the weapon attributes like accuracy.

Aye.., and there's the rub. Kate crews were skilled and dedicated in the torpedo attack role (though not as successful as as the game would have you believe). But that doesn't mean diddly in the level bomber role (a role they only used to attack immobile targets, and with no great success).

By combining the "pilot skill" rating for "low level naval attack", we've created a monster. If this is the way the game is going to function, then the "pilot skill" ratings for naval attacks should AVERAGE the success ratings for torpedo attacks and low level naval bombing (Creating an overall reduction across the board). Instead we've taken the best possible interpretation and spread it across two totally different activities.

Not sure what you mean Mike - they are not combined in AE like they were in WITP. When you train a pilot in naval attack with torpedoes selected for the squadron, they train in torpedo skill, not in naval bombing and not in low naval bombing. As for the starting skills of the pilots, you could convince the scenario designer!

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Not sure what you mean Mike - they are not combined in AE like they were in WITP. When you train a pilot in naval attack with torpedoes selected for the squadron, they train in torpedo skill, not in naval bombing and not in low naval bombing. As for the starting skills of the pilots, you could convince the scenario designer!

I mean that (as michaelm states) pilot skill for Japanese torpedo bombers seems to be based on their skill with torpedoes, but is also making them incredibly effective in the naval bombing role. The skill ratings as "bombers" and "naval bombers" seem to have been "grandfathered in" based not on their performance as level bombers, but their skill as torpedo bombers.

Over and over again I've watched Kate level bombers getting 50% hits and more on moving DD's at sea. Which is about 10 times better than they did against anchored BB's at Pearl Harbor, and more than 100 times better than they ever did against moving targets in real life. It's a problem which should have been dealt with at the same time they were preventing over-exploitation of Allied "skip" bombers.

[witpqs]

I interpret what he said differently - I think he used the term pilot skill generically, and meant the appropriate pilot skills to whatever attack is being carried out.

[CV Zuikaku]

Well, at the start of GC, many of the KB's Kate pilots have very high NavB skills. The main problem (or solution for Allied side) is they are mostly irreplacable, even with training programs. So as the time passes by and KB torpedo pilots get killed (and they are taking high casualties and life expectancy isn't too high), Kates do not have laser guided bombs anymore. I'm in late '43 as Japanese now, and my KB kates are not ship killers like they used to be. Level or torpedo bombing- they are rarely able to hit anything (except fat transports)....

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I´ve never seen any oh my thousands pilots in training sweep/escort gain even one point for strafe.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I´ve never seen any oh my thousands pilots in training sweep/escort gain even one point for strafe.

I have. Train fighters or fighter bombers on 'escort' at 100ft and they gain 'strafe' skill. Works every time for me.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I´ve never seen any oh my thousands pilots in training sweep/escort gain even one point for strafe.

I have. Train fighters or fighter bombers on 'escort' at 100ft and they gain 'strafe' skill. Works every time for me.

oops, have missed the 100ft

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: spence

Seems like this response is getting pretty routine.

That's because so are your complaints. As you don't play a human opponent, why not to use the editor?

As a side note, skip bombing with Marauders (not attack bombers) that had LowN-trained crews so far produced hits in 70+% of attack runs in my game. Using them against convoys feels like cheating already, and combat TFs proved to be not immune as well.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

By combining the "pilot skill" rating for "low level naval attack", we've created a monster. If this is the way the game is going to function, then the "pilot skill" ratings for naval attacks should AVERAGE the success ratings for torpedo attacks and low level naval bombing (Creating an overall reduction across the board). Instead we've taken the best possible interpretation and spread it across two totally different activities.

I don't know what you did, but this is most certainly not how the game works. Just, you know, try to actuall play it some day and look at pilot skills.

Also, both sides have uber level bombing TBs. This is unhistorical but in no way unfair to Allies. In my current game, I've sunk approximately a dozen ships with bomb-carrying Devastators (hard to say for certain now, because SBDs use the same bombs).

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: FatR

I don't know what you did, but this is most certainly not how the game works. Just, you know, try to actually play it some day and look at pilot skills. I've been playing the actual game PBEM since before it was released, so your comment is nonsense. But I will admit that it never occurred to me to use Devastators as naval bombers against shipping. Might bee one way to get them into range to do something.

Also, both sides have uber level bombing TBs. This is unhistorical but in no way unfair to Allies. In my current game, I've sunk approximately a dozen ships with bomb-carrying Devastators (hard to say for certain now, because SBDs use the same bombs). Sorry, I can't buy the arguement that being wrong twice as much somehow makes it right. What's crap for the Japanese should also be crap for the Allies.

[spence]

Sorry, I can't buy the arguement that being wrong twice as much somehow makes it right. What's crap for the Japanese should also be crap for the Allies.

Though the "glitch" seems to apply to all torpedo bombers there actually was a doctrinal difference between the USN and the IJN/FAA: TBDs and TBFs would conduct glide bombing attacks whereas the IJN (if not the FAA), when bombing, used their bombers as strictly level bombers. While not as accurate as dive bombing glide bombing tended to get lower and aim the bomb at the target.

Once again though it was USN doctrine that trained all USN bomber pilots of any stripe to get down and get personal with their antiship weaponry.

[spence]

If you look beyond the famous or infamous USAAF pictures of IJN carriers taken at Midway you consistently find that the USN went in low (even if they went in slow). The photo shows an attack by a PB2Y-5 (a 4E flying boat for those not familiar with the plane) on a merchie: picture taken by the wingman and the attacking plane visible just to the left of the ship's bow AT LOW ALTITUDE. The action report says the bombing altitude was 200 ft and the bombing speed was 170 kts. The PB2Y got damaged by flak but it seems from the action report that that was considered the price of doing business: avoid flak if you can but go in and get hits!

[uncivil_servant]

Did anything ever get modified - i.e. bomber sucess rates not being so great for one side and higher than normal for the other?

[jeffk3510]

nevermind


You mentioned Marauders and the combat replay results showed Mitchells.. but you mentioned that..

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I have found that LowNav and LowGrnd only gain at 1000 ft. anything above 100ft. gains in Nav and Grnd.

100 ft always gains in Strafing both for Nav and Grnd.

P39s trained at 100 ft in Strafing are AMAZING ship busters.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I have found that LowNav and LowGrnd only gain at 1000 ft. anything above 100ft. gains in Nav and Grnd.

100 ft always gains in Strafing both for Nav and Grnd.

P39s trained at 100 ft in Strafing are AMAZING ship busters.

Say that again?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Try training your aircraft at 100 ft they gain strafe experience. Fighters gain Strafe experience even if set on Sweep / Escort Training. Bombers set at Naval attack gain NavB and LowN. I suspect if set at Ground Attack they will gain GrdB and LowG experience. 

I have found that LowNav and LowGrnd only gain at 1000 ft. anything above 100ft. gains in Nav and Grnd.

100 ft always gains in Strafing both for Nav and Grnd.

P39s trained at 100 ft in Strafing are AMAZING ship busters.

Say that again?

I've experimeted extensively trying to find out at what altitudes LowNav and LowGrnd skills gain.

One would think skill gains in LowNav would come anywhere above 100 ft (strafing height) and below 6000 ft (the altitude threshold where the beloww 6000 ft penalty kicks in for) but I have not found that to be the case. One would expect the LowGrnd to be the same.

When I set my training squadrons to 3000 ft. they gain in normal Nav or normal Ground not LowNav or LowGrnd. I only see gains in the "Low" skills at 1000 ft. I have tried everyting from 5000 ft. down to 1000 ft.