WW1 gamers are getting spoiled

[JudgeDredd]

Wodin - I'm not sure how a squad based WW1 game would come about. Wasn't alot of the action just mass murder...erm...I mean mass attacks designed by tactical geniuses?

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Wodin - I'm not sure how a squad based WW1 game would come about. Wasn't alot of the action just mass murder...erm...I mean mass attacks designed by tactical geniuses?

Have to disagree....a popular misconception that this was all that happened through WW1...the more you read the more you realise there is plenty for SB to do that would be great....The Somme is what everyone thinks about as how it was all he time...not so...they walked across because they though Kitcheners Army couldn't do advance tactics that the regulars ha dlearnt during the war (advance in rushes with covering fire etc etc) so they told them to walk across.....So many battles could be done at the SB level where tactics count....lots of individual battles raged...house to house etc that would be great for the SB series....

[JudgeDredd]

Well I stand corrected. Wodin - you have just shown people (including me) how to put their information across without being aggressive or antagonistic [&o]

[7th Somersets]

Wodin,

Completely agree - save that for the Somme - in fact it was the first day of the Somme that people remember (for obvious reasons). The men advanced in lines for many reasons some of the main ones being: (i) there was a belief that the unprecedented barrage would have destroyed the enemy positions, (ii) there were always (whether regular or kitchener) command and control problems and the plan was to take advantage of (i) by advancing in an organised manner and occupying the enemy positions in an organised way, and (iii) the plan was to keep the attacking troops in readiness to stop the innevitable counter-attacks by maintaining order in the advance.
Tactics changed significantly as the Somme offensive developed.

[SlickWilhelm]

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

Wodin,

Completely agree - save that for the Somme - in fact it was the first day of the Somme that people remember (for obvious reasons). The men advanced in lines for many reasons some of the main ones being: (i) there was a belief that the unprecedented barrage would have destroyed the enemy positions, (ii) there were always (whether regular or kitchener) command and control problems and the plan was to take advantage of (i) by advancing in an organised manner and occupying the enemy positions in an organised way, and (iii) the plan was to keep the attacking troops in readiness to stop the innevitable counter-attacks by maintaining order in the advance.
Tactics changed significantly as the Somme offensive developed.

Right, and it could even be argued that had the British not employed tanks for the first time in the later stages of the Somme offensive, and saved their shock value for the later battle of Cambrai, the latter battle may have resulted in the long-hoped for breakthrough. But by then, the Germans knew how to counter tanks with direct arty fire over open sites.

[7th Somersets]

Slick Wilhelm,

I agree - although I would say that a spring '17 offensive with tanks (assuming that the fuel feed, steering and tank/infantry co-operation that started to be learned on the Somme could have been learned in training and through mechanical developments) on terrain that was better suited, would have had a massive shock impact and may have had strategically important results.

The initial tank/infantry assault at Cambrai (Nov 17) was achieved more through surprise and changes in artillery techniques. An example of this was the ability of the 7th Somersets (my user name) being in the front line of the assault at Cambrai, capturing the fortified village of La Vacquerie with with 14 dead - cf the casualties 1st day of the Somme when similar positions were attacked.

I do think that while the shock factor of the first use of tanks on 15th Sept 16 was diminished through their limited numbers, that a lot was learned (tactically and technically) through the early deployments of armour. We forget that these 'land ships' were completely new, and there was a massively steep learning curve.

[doomtrader]

World War One sounds really interesting. There are not too many games about that.

[pelle75]

Even on the first day on the Somme it wasn't as simple as everyone moving slowly in dense lines. I can recommend Prior and Wilson's "The Somme". Quoting a few lines from their conclusions of the first day:

"It needs to be reiterated ... [the methods] to cross no man's land and come to grips with the enemy were many and various. So in the north the attack brigade of 31 division moved into no man's land before zero and lay down to rush the German line when the barrage lifted. Further south some units of 4 Division ... started from their own parapets but adopted complex formations led by skirmishers and snipers. In the 29 Division on their flank, some battalions 'marched' up to the enemy wire, others ... rushed forward from advanced positions already dug into no man's land. ..."

Actually I think you can find plenty of interesting tactical thinking throughout the war. It's not that they didn't realize that it was difficult to attack in trench warfare. That's what makes ww1 tactics interesting of course and the subject deserves more gamer attention.

[7th Somersets]

Pellen - I totally agree. There were many different infantry/artillery tactics used on 1st July. The attacks in the south achieved all of their objectives. Ivor Maxse's tactics being extremely effective.

That's what makes ww1 tactics interesting of course and the subject deserves more gamer attention.

Working on that right now... at a level that will allow a player to explore the tactical/technological options in an interesting way.

[Randomizer]

I do think that while the shock factor of the first use of tanks on 15th Sept 16 was diminished through their limited numbers, that a lot was learned (tactically and technically) through the early deployments of armour. We forget that these 'land ships' were completely new, and there was a massively steep learning curve.

This is huge and refreshing to see in an Internet forum where the oft-repeated canard that the initial use of tanks in 1916 somehow spoiled the surprise lives on despite massive evidence to the contrary.  The belief that employing the tanks on the Somme was a mistake is fine example of how WW1 mythology and propaganda is commonly accepted as WW1 fact; the counterfactual statements of the bitter tank-theorist cabal repeated ad nauseum until becoming widely believed as an absolute truth.

Without prior combat experiance would the Tank Corps have developed un-ditching beams, facsines, recovery tanks, radio tanks, spall linings and personal protective gear for the crews?  All of these were the direct result of hard won combat experiance, sitting on the tanks until there were hundreds could well have lead to disaster since the element of surprise would have worked both ways.  Besides, the French had no intention or inclination to delay the introduction of their tank force into combat so regardless, the cat would have been out of the bag anyway.

On the other hand it's not difficult to conclude that the role of the WW1 tank was entirely over-rated since attrition essentially halved there numbers on a daily basis.  During the so-called Hundred Days the four division Canadian Corps seldom had more than five operational tanks in its entire area of responsibility and frequently none at all and yet it acheived significant tactical success without them.  The crack Australian Corps also lacked constant armour support and performed superbly.  Obviously tanks were not required for tactical success either during trench warfare or when mobility returned to the Western Front during the summer of 1918.

The Great War certainly has potential for recreating interesting tactical situations as it saw the birth of infantry and artillery tactics and techniques many of which are still valid today.  Some might recall that the old SSI Wargame Construction Set III, TANKS, had WW1 tactical units and scope included in its scenario editor.

[SlickWilhelm]

ORIGINAL: wodin

HPS announce France 1914!! Another one...I don't know you wait for a bus for an hour then three come along at once!

Looks like that will hit my buy list!

They also announce finally the second game in the Squad Battles covering the East Front!

France 1914 is definitely on my list, but what I'd like to see is a game covering the beginning of the war in the East. There were just as many "what ifs" in East Prussia and Serbia as there was in France in 1914.