Potential Buyers List

[Fulton]

I'd like the game, but not at this price.

[jomni]

Sheesh! Some of the posts here aren't helping further our cause.

[TinyPirate]

$80us? You have to be kidding. For a game built on an old engine? With no campaign? Please.

If steam can generate a 3000% sales increase off a 75% drop in the price of Gary's Mod (which is a very niche product) maybe Matrix need to have a think about their pricing strategy. Did they even drop the price of COTA as a promo for BFTB before release? Probably not, dropping prices on ancient games is like garlic to a vampire for these guys.

I have three buddies who were all quite keen on BFTB. I'm really the most hard core fan and if I'd picked it up and it was a reasonable price I think they would have as well (for multiplayer as single player fun). As it stands, I won't get it and neither will they.

Regardless of game quality, bla bla bla, it is so expensive the chances of me knowing folks who own this game who I want to play again (strangers are boring, AI gets boring after a while) are so slim the game is pointless to pick up. We've got a wonderful reverse network effect going on here.

[Bamilus]

Probably not, dropping prices on ancient games is like garlic to a vampire for these guys.

LOL. I just read a thread on either the COTA or HTTR forum (forget which) and a lot of people were defending not having a price drop (I don't know why). But, I agree. With this game priced so highly and no price drops for COTA or HTTR it is kinda like slapping the customer in the face. I know it's a small developer and they have to pay the bills yadda yadda yadda but no price drop in 5+ years is a bit ridiculous.

[jomni]

If this game can be installed over existing HTTR and COTA games to port the game engine improvements... then I may buy it at $100.
I think the Operational-level ShrapnelGames are doing this.  But the qulity of this series is better.

[TinyPirate]

I know it's a small developer and they have to pay the bills yadda yadda yadda but no price drop in 5+ years is a bit ridiculous.

This assumes a drop in price and a marketing push wouldn't drive so many new customers to the product you would more than make up for the price drop. I'd argue that Steam has demonstrated that with a bit of marketing and a price drop even the strangest niche games can have substantial increases in sales in the thousands of percent range.

Now would be the perfect time to have COTA and others in a bundle for some dollars, to offer a bundled pack of games, to price the game at a price point which encourages people to just take a shot at it, to sell a single game but provide a multiplayer 'license' so we can get our buddies to play... but no. Not at Matrix. You either like the beatings or you leave. I'm leaving.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: jomni

It may be RTS.  But it's a serious RTS.  It has realistic command and control.  You have the option of commanding the higher echelons, set up SOPs and see the orders trickle down to subordinate units realitically with delay.  The tactical AI of the units are good unlike other RTS games which needs micro management. 

ORIGINAL: jomni

It may be RTS. But it's a serious RTS. It has realistic command and control. You have the option of commanding the higher echelons, set up SOPs and see the orders trickle down to subordinate units realitically with delay. The tactical AI of the units are good unlike other RTS games which needs micro management.

Anyway, the purpose of this post is not to duscuss the game. There are already other posts for it.


RTS=$30

It's an RTW, not RTS. RT wargames are more difficult to make than TB wargames and RTS. Here is a demo of the first part of the series.

Anyway, I'd gladly pay 80PLN for this fine game. Maybe 169-200PLN if it would come in a collectors edition.

[JudgeDredd]

Unfortunately, what it has highlighted for me is this - if this "niche" market is going to skin me £70+ per decent game, then it seems I'm destined to leave the genre.

I am an impulse buyer - buying most anything that comes in my price bracket that has remote interest. Things that come in way under by max price generally get bought even if they are not in my interest zone.

The reason I have a £50 limit is because I do not get 400+ hours out of a game (as Dave mentioned in another thread). I probably would be lucky to get 100. I doubt I got 100 hours out of COTA even though I loved the game - because I'm an impulse buyer.

I'm not suggesting Matrix drop their price for me. Not at all. There are dedicated gamers who are very selective about what they buy - that's great for them. Matrix will make money from them. But they will not make money from me because I do not buy games to sink my life into...I play them for a few weeks at most and then they are history. They stay on my drive and every now and again I load them up - but I'm not hardcore enough to stay with one game and learn all the intricacies.

What they've done with the price is to price impulse buyers out. They've also priced new blood out. So they're relying on the hardcore gamers to support the market. One could suggest that's why it's becoming so bloody niche.

Anyway the point is I have a limit, in my current financial situation, of £50. That's it. I have no desire to break this limit. My limit is based on my gaming style. Matrix do not have to deal with my gaming habit or my limit...but they do have to deal with me not going over that. It certainly seems like I will not be buying WitE either if these are the prices to be expected.

I think it's time to hang up my gaming boots and look towards board gaming. I have Conflict of Heroes, Memoir '44 and now Phantom Leader. Each one is high quality, probably selling to an even smaller niche market and each one cost me less than £50.

I guess the people above and in the other thread are right - if you don't like the price - don't buy it. I won't. I hope for your sakes though, your advice doesn't come back and bite you in the arse as by ruling out the impulse buyers and the people who have a "limit", the burden to support your hobby falls squarely on your shoulders.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I think it's time to hang up my gaming boots and look towards board gaming. I have Conflict of Heroes, Memoir '44 and now Phantom Leader. Each one is high quality, probably selling to an even smaller niche market and each one cost me less than £50.

First of all, board gaming absolutely has games that are far more expensive than anything we sell, yet I assume you would not leave board gaming because of that? Please don't exaggerate this either. This is one release and as I've said each of our games and developers has its own business model. This is the pricing for the latest Panther Games release, it does not mean this is the new pricing for all of our releases.

With that said, I think there is some extra shock here from UK and Euro customers who are also seeing the effects of the recent significant currency conversion changes. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that except hope for the best.

[Yogi the Great]

Well, I thought this was going to be a must buy, but now it is a wait and see.

1) Will price go down here or elsewhere?
2) How good is it? (player reports)
3) How buggy is it? (Big problem with so many games today, the patches have to be rushed out quickly and often)
4) Does it play well on "older computers" My once top of the line pentium 4 with XP often has problems playing some of the newer intensive games these days.

[MajFrankBurns]

Or, for those few here who play MMO's, add up all those $15/month subscriptions and tell us how many hundreds you have spent on that 'one game'

Umm I play Guild Wars: Monthly cost Zero total game cost over 5 years $70 for all 3 chapters plus expansion. So don't try to use the MMO analogy there's plenty of them that cost nothing per month to play them. Then there is Mount & Blade that gives 100's of hours of play for less than $10.

Anyways back to your other analogy you used a "family" recreation to try to say that spending $80 on a family outing is the same as spending $80 on an individual (yourself) for this game and it's not. I would wager your family is not going to get any entertainment an enjoyment out of this game especially your wife and I doubt your 8 year olds and less are going to get enjoyment and fun from it either. [:-]

Once again everything comes back to value vs cost. I'd wager for many of us we can't find value in an $80 game. Especially one that is going to focus on just one battle one small part of the war. Had it been a campaign game of WWII with this engine and/or had random battle generators then I could see the value for the cost being reasonable. In this case though it is not imho.

[JudgeDredd]

Sorry Erik. I wasn't suggesting I thought this was a wide pricing structure for all products. I should've been clearer - I was suggesting that if all your "ferrari" type games are going to cost that, then I won't be getting them.

Two games I was extremely stoked about this year were WitE and BftB. I know you haven't said anything about pricing for WitE - but given your statements here I don't think I'd be scare mongering by saying it will be out of my price bracket too.

We'll see.

Someone else pointed out something that's become glaringly apparent now - I'm an impulse buyer...not a grognard. I buy games because I can afford them and they are of interest to me. Clearly I am not grognard enough to pay more than £50 for a game.

Anyway - no ill feeling. Sorry.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...

With that said, I think there is some extra shock here from UK and Euro customers who are also seeing the effects of the recent significant currency conversion changes. ...

Yes. And no. There's a bit of that, but even in dollars, it's pushing the bar a tad high when , in a time were economies all around are going down the drain, you start putting out premium price products. Matrix should also not say 'it's their fault, not ours'. It might be, but you are providing the commercial face to Panther. Panther is not selling the game, Matrix is, so you might have to understand that people will complain to the guys they are actually buying from. Same thing as going to the supermarket and suddenly realizing that your groceries cost increased. Will you complain to the carrot farmer?

Having said, being sub-employed, and under paid, I'm skipping this one.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...
First of all, board gaming absolutely has games that are far more expensive than anything we sell, ...

Again, yes, and no.

Of course there are board games that cost more thna this game. (not many albeit). But do you get them in 'virtual' way? or do they actually came with glossy (sometimes mounted) maps, full colour manuals and play aids, and so on?

There is something to being tangible. I would fells far less shocked if I was dishing out this amount of money for something with a decent printed set of manuals, in a boxed edition.

Having said all this, there's a message to Panther also. People on this forum , showed a huge degree of tolerance, towards the sucessive postponements this game suffered.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I think it's time to hang up my gaming boots and look towards board gaming. I have Conflict of Heroes, Memoir '44 and now Phantom Leader. Each one is high quality, probably selling to an even smaller niche market and each one cost me less than £50.

First of all, board gaming absolutely has games that are far more expensive than anything we sell, yet I assume you would not leave board gaming because of that? Please don't exaggerate this either. This is one release and as I've said each of our games and developers has its own business model. This is the pricing for the latest Panther Games release, it does not mean this is the new pricing for all of our releases.

With that said, I think there is some extra shock here from UK and Euro customers who are also seeing the effects of the recent significant currency conversion changes. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that except hope for the best.

shock here from UK

Well Eric - the majority of cost for a boardgame is made up of the cost of the physical components so your point is irrelevant - you are selling an electronic download. His point was that even with this cost of physical components some boardgames are still less than this game for a comparable product. I would dispute your contention that there is nothing you can do about local pricing - digital river may not be prepared to do anything about it - but those are two different things entirely. I must say it seems to border on idiocy that in a global internet market you fail to take account of currency fluctuations and price at a local level.

In the UK this game costs 75 pounds at the moment - that - in any ones book is a lot of money for a "game" - whether its worth it or not seems to me to be a matter of personal debate - personally I agree with JudgeDredd and say that what you have done is effectively price out the impulse/ less hardcore buyers like me. Whether that is a good business decision is a matter for debate - personally I cannot see how it is - I would always presume there or more people like me buying your games than hardcore - examine every nuance of the system gamers.

Personally I am glad however we seem to have ditched the old - we do this because we are interested in the hobby line from developers - now it is about making a profit ... at least this will allow us to judge games based on their merit and not some obscure "support" motive.

I understand when people say this is not the most expensive thing entertainment wise they may do - but what that doesnt take account of is that games never excluded the other choice - seems to me - given most of us have lives and families - its not only ourselves we have to justify the cost to - that is the arena this price has taken the game into.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Well Eric - the majority of cost for a boardgame is made up of the cost of the physical components so your point is irrelevant

The cost of the physical components in a board game is still a fraction of the overall price. The rest pays for the development of the game, just like with a computer game. The download delivery method is a way for us to avoid the problems of the current retail market and it does reduce costs, but those costs are included in the additional $10 for a physical copy. The base download price here was set based on the development time and cost and would have been the same starting point for a board game.

I would dispute your contention that there is nothing you can do about local pricing - digital river may not be prepared to do anything about it - but those are two different things entirely. I must say it seems to border on idiocy that in a global internet market you fail to take account of currency fluctuations and price at a local level.

Our policy has always been to set the same price across all markets. This applies in times when the currency exchange is more favorable for the UK/Euro and at times when it is not. There are many mainstream companies who price $1 = 1 Euro = 1 Pound. We have never done that and never will. So if we charge someone in the US $50 for a game, we will not charge someone in Europe $35 or $75 for the same game, they will also be charged $50 or as close as we can get to it with the conversion. The psychology of the pricing though is that sudden currency conversion changes will always cause some shock when people are used to a certain price level based on past currency conversions. That applies even more when the dollar price of the game is higher than usual too.

We understand how pricing works and I absolutely agree and understand that this will cost us some sales and I absolutely regret that. We will try to make the game more accessible to customers with a lower price point in the future through sales or other mechanisms. If you see the replies from me and from Dave, we made this decision for this release because we felt it was necessary to increase the price for Panther Games to be able to continue making games like this. As with anything else in the market, we will soon find out if that decision was correct or not.

Regards,

- Erik

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

... If you see the replies from me and from Dave, we made this decision for this release because we felt it was necessary to increase the price for Panther Games to be able to continue making games like this. As with anything else in the market, we will soon find out if that decision was correct or not.

Regards,

- Erik

I'm no businesman, that's for sure, but I fail to see how, in a time of deep crisis would an increase in the price of what is a luxury item, (hence encouraging piracy, and driving off sales) is an argument to allow Panther to continue developing games. For the external view of Panther, it also kills the 'we do it all for the hobby' motto that wargame companies so much like to parade around. **

But you guys are the ones with the sale figures, so you certainly know better.

** Not really a Matrix issue, since you guys , as publishers, are obviously in this for the profit, and that's ok.

[MajFrankBurns]

I absolutely agree and understand that this will cost us some sales

Some sales? I believe this will cost you more than "some" sales I believe this will cost you a lot of sales.

In my opinion if we/the many fall prey to this price gouging scheme this it could open the doors for others like Paradox and mainstream publishers to say :Look they got $80 for that game if they can do it we can too and then boom gaming prices go out of this world and the gnawing and gnashing of teeth will begin worldwide.

I can hardly live in this age where games cost $50 let alone $80 so I do not want to see $80 games all over the market before I die. [&o]

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: jmlima
For the external view of Panther, it also kills the 'we do it all for the hobby' motto that wargame companies so much like to parade around.

That's an interesting conclusion. I've seen this "greed" meme tossed around as well. I understand how it can seem that way from the customer's perspective if you assume that we are selling as many copies as a mainstream title and simply asking more money for each copy. However, the price increase in this case was strictly to try to cover the development costs for BFTB, which too four years to make and sells in a niche market that does not have mass market economies of scale. Although I called the game itself a Ferrari, no one here is driving Ferraris as a result of these game sales. I drive a "reasonably priced car" which I bought used. This is not about greed in the sense of making more money than you really need, instead it's about making a living and just getting enough of a return on investment to continue development.

I understand entirely the arguments against the pricing. I would only say to those that are not able or willing to buy at the current price that we hear you and we hope that in the future we will be able to make BFTB available at your price point. We will have a demo available in a few weeks as well to help with the purchase decision. I should also point out that we did try lower prices at release on COTA and HTTR and it was time to try a different strategy for BFTB.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

I would also ask that discussions focused on the pricing stay in the price thread rather than filling up other threads as well. This one was intended by the original poster for people who would like to signal to us at what price point they would actually buy the game rather than debate the pricing itself, let's let this thread fulfill that purpose.