1943 Bob vs. Don AAR

[ComradeP]

what experience ? the experience he gets is the ones who make it back

I was thinking that even for the Soviets, new pilots will decrease the probably fairly mediocre experience of the air units. Looking at his Il-2 losses, I wouldn't be too surprised if whole units went back to the drawing board.

Regarding HS128B's, none are being produced, 16 units currently have them, but they are withdrawn gradually, the last scheduled withdrawal is in November 1944. I think El Hefe is the man responsible for the OOB and reinforcement/withdrawal schedules.

I checked some other sources, the planes were phased out as recon aircraft in 1942, but got other duties.

As far as air losses goes for the Soviets I am not too concerned over these numbers, it's pretty standard in all my other tests and the air units I get back from production, lend lease or the air game more then compensates for the losses.

Perhaps, but that does mean there'll be a shortage of specific types over time. I'd hate to be fighting the war with only a small number of Il-2's, for example.

If I may make a suggestion, starting over would seem to be preferable, as with the loss of the currently encircled mobile formations the Germans will be screwed.

As to reserve status: are MP's also the limit for how often a reserve unit can join a battle during an opponent's turn, or can they only join 1 battle? It would be nice to have a network of Panzer divisions behind the lines in crucial sectors, all mutually supporting.

By the way: is there an option/toggle where you can see which Corps/Army/Front enemy units belong to? That would be a nice feature.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...

By the way: is there an option/toggle where you can see which Corps/Army/Front enemy units belong to? That would be a nice feature.

Nope. I and some others have asked for this. Pretty sure showing the color of enemy units is on the list of requested additions but no telling if it will make the cut or when.

[Great_Ajax]

I am starting my 1943 final review today. I noted that at least 2 recon squadrons are still equipped with Hs-126s with the 4.(H)/23 and 3.(H)/21 but I will review all of them as most of them should be Fw-189s by now. I also plan on reviewing the relative morale/experience levels of the German versus Russian airgroups.

Trey

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

what experience ? the experience he gets is the ones who make it back

I was thinking that even for the Soviets, new pilots will decrease the probably fairly mediocre experience of the air units. Looking at his Il-2 losses, I wouldn't be too surprised if whole units went back to the drawing board.

Regarding HS128B's, none are being produced, 16 units currently have them, but they are withdrawn gradually, the last scheduled withdrawal is in November 1944. I think El Hefe is the man responsible for the OOB and reinforcement/withdrawal schedules.

I checked some other sources, the planes were phased out as recon aircraft in 1942, but got other duties.

As far as air losses goes for the Soviets I am not too concerned over these numbers, it's pretty standard in all my other tests and the air units I get back from production, lend lease or the air game more then compensates for the losses.

Perhaps, but that does mean there'll be a shortage of specific types over time. I'd hate to be fighting the war with only a small number of Il-2's, for example.

If I may make a suggestion, starting over would seem to be preferable, as with the loss of the currently encircled mobile formations the Germans will be screwed.

As to reserve status: are MP's also the limit for how often a reserve unit can join a battle during an opponent's turn, or can they only join 1 battle? It would be nice to have a network of Panzer divisions behind the lines in crucial sectors, all mutually supporting.

By the way: is there an option/toggle where you can see which Corps/Army/Front enemy units belong to? That would be a nice feature.

[Great_Ajax]

Bob, one thing I see is that you are building fortified regions close to or on the front and this is always a bad idea as Don will smash through these before you even get a chance to fortify the hex. I would recommend building them AT LEAST 100 miles to the rear so that they have enough time to build up their fortification levels. These fort units are not intended to be Maginot Line like units but offer up basic protection. They are best used to be occupied by line units for full effect and if you attach your construction units to them, they build up faster.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It will be interesting to see how a Mansteinesque backhand blow strategy works out here.

[ComradeP]

What would provide the best defensive value: 3 divisions, or 2 divisions and a fort unit, assuming both options have a reasonable fortification level? Are forts basically a way not to require the placement another regiment/division in a hex?

[Hard Sarge]

overall, 3 Divs are almost always better, the idea with forts is where you don't have enough manpower to man everything, and or to stop a breakthough, by making it attack and burn up Fat and MPs

now a nice Russian Fort, with attached AT weapons and a couple of Corps dug into max level, would be nice as a static line

[Hard Sarge]

and at that, the main line isn't the key to the defence, those 3 Divs in a hex, can always be beaten, it is if there are any reserves behind them, reserves will break up more attacks then the main line ever will

[PyleDriver]

Well said Ron. Those damn reserves springing into action can stop an attack cold. Thus the good leader that can release them...Guys theres alot in this game to think about...And yes your wife will hate you for playing this game all the time...lol...Mine does, but she still loves me...

[Zovs]

Okay, Bob and I will be starting over. I / we will try to make this like a sort of General Series Replay. But I'll be talking funny as the Soviets (Like the above) and Bob can give his inputs and then I'll try to be a Neutral commentary as well, giving tips and stuff and then you all can comment, ask question or criticize how you see fit.

I don't have all the answers, but I love crushing the Germans...so I'll try to curb my appetite for destruction a bit, but it will be hard due to my ancestral linkage to my fallen and living comrades from the East...

[Flaviusx]

I'm glad you guys are resetting this.
 
 
 
 

[karonagames]

Don has allowed me to mulligan. I promise I will try to do a better job, and to ensure that every Korps has units in reserve mode. Also the Panzers and Panzer Grenadiers will not be left in the front line,except in emergencies but will be in reserve mode so that they make maximum contribution to the IGO/UGO structure of the game.

I hope that the AAR will help answer the question: "By not crippling the mechanised Korps attacking the Kursk Salient, could the Axis have stopped the soviets getting over the Dneiper river line before the muddy season arrives?", and whether the 1 months breathing space this buys the axis is enough for them to then build successive defensive lines.

That is what I am going to try to do - Keep the advice and suggestions coming guys - clearly against Don I am going to need it!

Which of course now means he will go all out for Riga and the destruction of Army Group North!

[Flaviusx]

A couple of questions (I'm going to assume this thread has a more laissez faire policy on actual discussion and, hopefully, fewer wives):
 
1. How does the game handle retreats if you are overstacked on a hex you fall back on? (I.e., assuming you have a double line piled 3 deep and are forced to fall back.)
 
2. How do reserves act in this situation? Can they overstack in reaction? Is it indeed a good idea to have a double line stacked 3 deep?

[SGHunt]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66
As far as air losses goes for the Soviets I am not too concerned over these numbers

Stalin would be proud of that sentiment![;)] "Plenty more more where they came from - pass the vodka, Comrade Beria!"

Actually 4,500 losses over two weeks is significant, out of a total wartime production of some 150,000 aircraft. My guess is that the reason you are so relaxed about it is that you know the Luftwaffe cannot keep up this rate of attrition, and cannot replace their own losses, which will surely come.

I too am pleased with the restart - come on, bob Manstein. This Don Zhukov chap is just a big playground bully. Give him a good slap each time he over-reaches himself: cut off the spear point whenever you can, especially the armour, and trade land for time. Elastic defence (or so it says here)... And Don, please don't hold back, use lethal force at all times - we want to see what the Soviets can do and how their logistics hold up. (I recall Hard Sarge bemoaning his supply situation just as the Germans were breaking apart...)

Stuart

[karonagames]

I only have one wife to whom I have been married for 30 years. The fact that I have previously worked in the computer games industry has allowed me to do "market research" playing games for most of that time.Now I am not in the industry, I am doing "voluntary" market research!

If a retreat causes over-stacking it retreats further and suffers additional retreat attrition.

Reserve units do not physically enter the stack, so yes they can support a three unit stack. There are limits to the number of units that can added to the defence and attack from reserve.

[ComradeP]

I was also wondering about the retreat rule for full stacks in a double line.

BigAnorak, at this point, whilst I'm still studying the situation on the map, the only suggestion I have is to seriously shorten your line in the Kuban peninsula by moving your divisions back to the hexes where, on the zoomed out screenshot of the area in the first post, the unidentified German units are and the hex north-east of that. Doing so will mean the Soviets can only attack you from 1 hex.

I'd also suggest that you try to find a way to clean up your partisan problem, although that will be difficult with most of the Minor Axis units gone.

[Flaviusx]

It's that Vasilevsky chap you really have to watch out for, actually.
 
(They are both down there at Kursk as Stavka coordinators, btw.)
 
 

[karonagames]

Each forced retreat causes retreat attrition, which if you have to retreat further will put you closer to the "rout" threshold, which causes major losses and puts the unit out of action for 3-4 weeks.

The problem with the Kuban, and something you will hear Don and I talking about a lot is the lack of admin points (APs). The units in the Kuban are in Static mode which means I have to pay 1-4 APS to activate them. If he forces me to retreat I automatically get activated. I need APs to get my Korps and Armies organised for defensive fighting, not the stupid attack they are currently set up for. Moving support units to where they are needed also uses APs, and most importantly APs are used for building fortified zones.

The Kuban is on my "to do" list but there are higher priority items at the moment.

The management of APs is going to get very "gamey" and will be the subject of much debate once the game is released.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I was also wondering about the retreat rule for full stacks in a double line.

AFAIK there are no special bonuses for "line holding" (or any similar case / rule) in WitE...


Leo "Apollo11"

[SGHunt]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
It's that Vasilevsky chap you really have to watch out for, actually.

I agree Vasilevsky was much more subtle, more able (probably brighter) - but Zhukov I have in mind as more of a prizefighter, hard and relentless, and unflinching in the face of a truly brutal butcher's bill.

[Hard Sarge]

did you guys set any House rules for this game ? (may I missed them)