House rules and gameyness

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AW1Steve
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: derhexer
"House rules are for cry babies! Unless Matrix people suggest that there is something so inherently "gamey" in the program that they suggest house rules, why would we need them except to strenghten "weak" players? "
Ouch .. that's harsh.
House rules are there because this is a computer game. The game engine has certain limitations, and a large degree of flexibility has been built in. As with all computer programs, it is quite stupid unless it is doing precisely what it is programmed to do, and precisely when it is programmed to do so.

Such being the case, it is very easy to cheat it. The program’s flexibility is the cause and people who can figure it out can always find a way to cheat it; something that is endemic to every computer gaming program ever written. The problem is compounded by the existence of certain battles that have been researched to the extent of identifying what some pilot had for breakfast that morning and the DEMAND that those battles have historical results: ignoring the fact that those results depended on purely human, psychological factors that a computer is not able to deal with. So tweaking for those specific, historical, and unusual results will skew the base paradigm and pull everything else out of whack.

But people DEMAND that flak kill precisely their opinion of attacking planes. People DEMAND the PH strike kill precisely their opinion of BBs. People DEMAND that artillery causes their opinion of casualties. People DEMAND that each and every engagement in the game unfolds just like the Victory at Sea DVD. Accommodating this nonsense causes the code to get even more skewed when applied to more general cases.

So House Rules aren’t bad. Intelligent players tend to understand where the holes are and obviate the cheats by making House Rules that attempt to limit things to the middle of the program’s mathematical distribution. House Rules allow players to define their own particular takes on the location of the 50 yard line and the extent of the sidelines and the location of the endzone. Flexibility is the key. Self-absorbed persons won’t understand it, but the flexibility of the game system allows a huge play space that can be narrowed and defined by suitable House Rules.


JWE please forgive me ,but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the people who designed and created this game. And faith in them. I know that you were involved in it, so you'd definitely be more knowledgeable about the game and it's flaws than I would. But my point of view is, when I buy a tool, a electronic device, or any other product , do I immediately take it apart and say "well, I don't need this, or that , and obviously the people who designed this are idiots. I know better!"?. [X(]
I don't know many people who would. (Except of course for my idiot relative who takes his new car and says "Emissions equipment? I don't need that!)[X(][:D]

Seriously , what I'm trying to say , is unless someone who knows a heck of a lot more than me, or someone from Matrix themselves, says to us "there is a flaw in the game, use this rule to fix it", I have a real problem with people "screwing with the recipe". But I hear constant whining of how this game is broken, etc. And often house rules are used to "adjust" the game to deal with a players desires, rather than any real flaw. So , as you can tell, I'm not a big fan of house rules unless 1) there is a definite flaw in the game (hence "gamey") 2) there is an "imbalance" between players (ie-and experienced player and a "weak" player) OR there is an attempt under way for one or more of the players to test a theory (I'm currently playing a PBEM with Chickenboy who's attempting to test some of his).

If I'm harsh , then I apologize , but I honestly do feel that many house rules commonly used have more to do with the inadequacy of players than the game.
mike scholl 1
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: offenseman

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

This is why the 8th start is preferable. It avoids the temptation of either player to exploit "hindsight" to the max. The people fighting the war didn't have any "hind" to "sight"..., why should you? OK, it's a game, so it's inevitable..., but at least we can stop the worst exploits.

Who is it preferable to? Just one opinion here but I'd say that any setting is only preferable to those playing that particular game. What is preferable certainly varies by the individual. Personally I wouldn't want to play either side starting on 12/8. I'd rather fight my own fight; both sides can use a lot of hindsight so it is not limited to Japan. I also would not try to impose my opinion on others. There is no right way and wrong way to start a GAME. [:)]

And as I said in an earlier post, "If you want to start "wild and wooly" on the 7th, then let both players have free reign to do as they please to exploit hindsight." If you want a "game", let both sides "play" from the start. If you prefer something more like a "simulation game", then start on the 8th.
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JWE
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
If I'm harsh , then I apologize , but I honestly do feel that many house rules commonly used have more to do with the inadequacy of players than the game.
No need Steve, you're not being harsh at all. I wouldn't say it quite that way, however, but heck. I think of it as a spectrum, and try to recognize that the game cannot satisfy conflicting demands. So, I try to think of HRs as a means to allow certain groups of players to shift the center of the paradigm in a direction more conducive to their style of play. I would rather have that, than reactively drag the whole system in one direction, and then another, and then another, depending on the percieved crisis of the moment. To me, HRs are like a safety valve, and so I don't really mind them. But I can understand how they torque people off.
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vettim89
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by vettim89 »

I think JWE has hit the nail on the head. Not everyone approaches this game from the same view point. Some view it solely as a challenging strategic game set in the WWII PTO/CBI. Others view it as a historical war game where the war in said theatre can be replayed to see how the results might be affected by different strategic thinking by both sides. The former group are the type that wouldn't want a lot of HR's nor understand why people would want them. The latter group would be much more likely to suggest the use of HR's to help rein in some of the games "warts" as far as ahistorical combat results.

Neither side is wrong, its just a different way to look at it. However, I dare say that two opponents in a PBEM are best suited if they match up in their approaches to the game. The two approaches I described above don't mix well. When I was a fourth year student in vet school we doing an intake on a horse for surgical referral. One of my clasmates was reviewing the medical history provided by the referring veterinarian and snorted incredulously about the care care the horse had been getting up to that point. I believe he said" I can't beleive he would do that! (he being the referring vet)". My Equine Surgery Professor snagged the chart from kid, reviewed the notes, and pronounced that he saw nothing wrong with the care the animal had been given. He then spoke a truism that I have quoted at least once a week in 20+ years of practice if not more often: "Some times different is not wrong; some times different is just different".

I think that applies to WITP/AE as much as does to the practice of verterinary medicine

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
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topeverest
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by topeverest »

JWE,

Its the best WWII game I have ever played. You rock and so does the entire team. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, 'You can please some of the poeple some of the time. You can even please a few of the people all the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time.'

The game's success stands for itself.
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Charbroiled
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by Charbroiled »

With the original WITP I believe much like Steve did. I offered up a game of "Warts and all" in the Opponent section of this forum, thinking that there was nothing that gamey that I couldn't live with. The person that took up my offer then proceeded to "teach" me in what gamey was. 400 Bettys on a size 3 AF and still able to use torpedos an launch 100 planes/turn. Landing a squad with a sub in a non-base hex to block the retreat path of a division. He even tried to kill my CVs on the first turn because he knew precisely which hex they were in....luckily I moved them south. I lived with everything he threw at me without complaint, because I got exactly what I asked for.

My point is....much like what Vettim89 said....HRs or not, it is important that you talk to potential opponent before starting a game to understand what the other player's expectations are. This game takes too long to finish for a person to be saddled with a type of player who's viewpoint is different.
"When I said I would run, I meant 'away' ". - Orange
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AW1Steve
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by AW1Steve »

400 Betty's!?!?! Holy Sh--!!!!!![X(]
Alfred
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by Alfred »

Charbroiled,

How was your opponent able to launch Bettys armed with a torpedo out of a level 3 airfield in classical WITP?

Alfred
mike scholl 1
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled
.HRs or not, it is important that you talk to potential opponent before starting a game to understand what the other player's expectations are. This game takes too long to finish for a person to be saddled with a type of player who's viewpoint is different.


Exactly what I've said for years now..., and well stated to boot. Bravo!
Central Blue
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by Central Blue »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My suggestion to both of you gentlemen would be to start the senario on Dec. 8th. Best of both worlds. Having the allies not move on the 1st turn would mean Kimmel would be in command, not you. Kimmel may have left the fleet where it was , but that doesn't mean anyone else would. JO Richardson certainly would not have (And that's part of the reason that he was fired and Kimmel deep selected to replace him!). The question isn't should you move the fleet , but is "would anyone else have left it in PH that Sunday morning?
Absolutely right. Aside from the peculiarity of freezing all military forces multiple time zones away from Pearl (Force Z anyone?), is the assumption that all commercial vessels would not be active in their usual movements but would be waiting patiently at the docks for the first turn to end.
My own, admittedly eccentric and purely personal, opinion is that the war didn’t really start till the evening of Dec. 7, Washington D.C. time. Anything that happens before that (no matter how justifiable or rational) happens in a vast echoing cave filled with ganga smoke, mirrors, fever dreams and peyote visions. I guess my point is the game was devised to be a fun way to play out the Pacific war, rather than a mechanism by which one can realign the initial politico/military situation on Dec. 6. Call me naïve, but that’s why so much time was spent on a Dec. 8 scenario.

It wasn’t till the Dec. 8 sun rose over the Oahu hills and the morning air carried the stench of burning ships, planes and men, that reality hit home. It was a rather profound “Oh my God! .. I don’t believe this! .. What the hell do we do now!” kind of moment for the participants. A rather violent and intrusive wake-up-call, yeah? Although the commanders were professionals, nothing like this, nowhere, nowhen, nohow, had ever happened to American arms before. It just wasn’t in the experiential lexicon and they just weren’t prepared for the degree of shock and awe that smacked them on the brookie. Bad cess for Kimmel and Short.

Ok, enough with the transcendental owl manure. Ya'll know where I'm coming from. Ciao. J

When I play the AI with the 12/7 start, I leave the military settings alone, and don't spend political points till the 8th. But if it's Monday morning somewhere when it's Sunday morning at Pearl, the commercial ships are working if they aren't in the Philippines or Singapore. I don't know that that is terribly a-historical -- figuring that the word on Pearl is getting out when people are already at work -- or game-changing; and it breaks up some of the tedium of getting things started.

Oh, I've tried the other way too, since the AI never complains. Pearl and the USAAF in the Philippines still gets smacked plenty hard with CAP up -- if you leave surprise on.

The Chinese were already at war, so I have no problems with giving them orders on 12/7. Force Z is debatable. I leave it alone because the British air cover is better than real life, and the AI needs all the help it can get. At least the RAF is on combat stations. Brereton never gets another command when I'm in charge.

Great point about starting from the 8th. You still get the Force Z debate. And the KB can still go back for another smack at Pearl if they are of a mind to.

And I agree that house rules are a better choice than dragging the game engine in one direction or another. PBEMer's just need to be up front about their expectations from the get-go and everyone should be fine with that. I think it would be very bad manners to vacate Pearl for a trip to Christmas Island and have the AF on CAP without informing my opponent that I felt free to do so.
USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
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Charbroiled
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by Charbroiled »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Charbroiled,

How was your opponent able to launch Bettys armed with a torpedo out of a level 3 airfield in classical WITP?

Alfred

You know, I was asking the same question.

To be honest, though, he actually had between 400-500 planes on the airfield (he gave me his password when he quit). Probably only about 150-200 were Betty's. About another 150-200 were Zeros. Any TF headed towards that base would start getting attacked about 10 hexes out with bombs, and if they got to within 5 hexes, the Bettys would completely destroy the TF. Combined with not being able to bomb the base because of the zero cap....it made a formidable fortress.
"When I said I would run, I meant 'away' ". - Orange
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traskott
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by traskott »

it was Clasical Witp. The easy answer: UberCap of hellcats. The good answer: bypass the position.
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AW1Steve
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by AW1Steve »

But in all seriousness guys, are you finding any where near the number of flaws or bugs in AE as Vanilla WITP? It seems as soon as I discover a flaw, they already have a patch to fix it![&o]
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crsutton
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by crsutton »

On house rules. They are like girlfriends, you keep adding them and sooner or later there is going to be a problem.
 
As few as possible are the best way. Then an open friendly dialog with your opponent to ensure that there are no issues or hard feelings.
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AW1Steve
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

On house rules. They are like girlfriends, you keep adding them and sooner or later there is going to be a problem.

As few as possible are the best way. Then an open friendly dialog with your opponent to ensure that there are no issues or hard feelings.

I could not agree more! Thanks for putting it so clearly and succinctly![&o]
mike scholl 1
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

On house rules. They are like girlfriends, you keep adding them and sooner or later there is going to be a problem.

As few as possible are the best way. Then an open friendly dialog with your opponent to ensure that there are no issues or hard feelings.


I think of them kind of like the bidding process in Bridge. They are a way of discovering what your potential opponent thinks is important to him. A starting point in the "feeling out" process of deciding if this is someone you want to invest 1600+ turns of gaming with.
Alfred
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Charbroiled,

How was your opponent able to launch Bettys armed with a torpedo out of a level 3 airfield in classical WITP?

Alfred

You know, I was asking the same question.

To be honest, though, he actually had between 400-500 planes on the airfield (he gave me his password when he quit). Probably only about 150-200 were Betty's. About another 150-200 were Zeros. Any TF headed towards that base would start getting attacked about 10 hexes out with bombs, and if they got to within 5 hexes, the Bettys would completely destroy the TF. Combined with not being able to bomb the base because of the zero cap....it made a formidable fortress.

It is a good thing I no longer play classical WITP, nor even have it installed on my Hard Drive, because it was my recollection that anything less than a level 4 airfield meant that the Bettys would sortie only with their extended range ordnance = no torpedoes. Good thing I missed that bullet; I probably would have keeled over with a heart attack seeing torpedoes launched from a level 3 airfield.

Alfred
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Yes, me too! I am very much impressed in how quickly Tech Support comes out with these fixes. Image
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LoBaron
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by LoBaron »

Just a general comment:
 
Personally I like to play with as few HR´s as possible. With (a) good opponent(s) where communication is not an issue anything happening can be
talked over in case it is neccesary. The reason for this is simply that I dislike checking everytime I do something considered creative if I am
allowed to or not.
 
Still I have to admit that complex houserules (for example Fletcher´s historical ruleset) can completely change the pace of the
game and possibly force it closer to actual history, which is tempting.
 
 
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AW1Steve
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RE: House rules and gameyness

Post by AW1Steve »

I've seen some sets of house rules that you have to print out and keep checking before a turn! The more rules you have , the more likely you are to inadvertently violate them. [8|]
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