Initial observations from a new player

[Andrew Williams]

NO!

You can't be allowed to know what the enemy can see, crikey!

[Sheytan]

Dont see how that is a cheat. Really...what you can see they can see. Not assclown insane candy magic here. If any of you served in combat arms you may recall field tests that did nothing but ask you to define unit assets and draw dead space, etc, and how to dictate indirect fires to these zones.

ORIGINAL: zon

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

-How about a reverse LOS tool? Conquest of the Aegean had such a tool, LOS works much better in that series. A LOS tool would help with planning advances more. I think elevation and such also may be too detailed in game, giving off wierd LOS readings. Maybe instead of doing 1 meters increments, do 2 meter increments to smooth out line of sight. I would rather play a game where LOS is somewhat abstracted then so absolute is results in a frustrating game experience. Trying to model every single nook and cranny in the game is part of the LOS problem.

Reverse LOS would be nice but would be very unrealistic. On the battlefield you never know for sure what your enemy can see. You run to a ditch for cover and hope they can't see into it. As for your opinion about 2 meter increments: I believe the games uses .5 meter increments and for good reason. You want there to be a LOS difference between standing up, kneeling, and going prone. Otherwise, what's the point of doing any of them? A 2 meter LOS increment would negate any advantage of kneeling behind a stone wall vs standing behind a stone wall.

CC2 allows a series of cheats where holding done the Alt key gives up intel with a mouseclick (leftover from testing, I believe). In one case, by dragging out the LMB from enemy units while holding down the Alt key, you can determine the enemy's LOS. Seems like a cheat but it could be considered a feature. In CC, we're trying to think in 3D while while looking at 2D maps and can't get a sense of terrain features that real-world troops on the ground would form, including judging whether a tank on a high hill has LOS over a one-storey building to a ditch where you might go for cover. Note there are many map features (the art) in LSA that suggest much greater elevation changes than the map data actually presents. I understand your comment about realism, but maybe we need a feature to help us navigate a less-than-perfect representation of the battlefield.

[Andrew Williams]

No, it's a cheat

Work it out , yes... be given the answer, not on your life.

[Southernland]

ORIGINAL: zon

My comment was really aimed at 2D maps generally, not just the current data discombobulation. I don't see reverse LOS any less or more realistic than checking your own unit's LOS.

Essentially if you're checking you're own LOS you're "seeing" what you're troops can "see" and move your troops into more advantageous positions based on a measure of reality

Checking Reverse LOS (heretoforeafter known as CHEATING) you can see what the enemy see and move your troops accordingly to stop them shooting at you by
..........reading their minds?
..........Using the powers of the entire US covert survailance apparatus
..........The hand of God?

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

If any of you served in combat arms you may recall field tests that did nothing but ask you to define unit assets and draw dead space, etc, and how to dictate indirect fires to these zones.

yeah but we're talking being able to accurately to that for enemy dispositions, not your own. Fair enough knowing where the enemy are and having a rough idea where they may lay down fire by the nature of the terrain. But seriously; you want to be able to precisely map where they can see and shoot?

[Andrew Williams]

If I have a team down in a valley... they look up and see an enemy team.

that enemy team has LOS to the next valley and beyond... my team cannot see what they can see unless they indulge in mind melding.


if you continue this argument along the lines you have so far I'll have to mark you in my little red book

**** Looking up "S" Sheytan would come just after Sbufkle and he is marked "idiot" - you wouldn't want a ditto would you? ****

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: zon

My comment was really aimed at 2D maps generally, not just the current data discombobulation. I don't see reverse LOS any less or more realistic than checking your own unit's LOS.

Really? I think it's completely realistic to know what your OWN units can see. After all, they're your own men. But to know what the enemy can see is basically cheating in my book. I know of no unit in WWII(or any war) that had the ability to see what enemy can see.

[xe5]

@A.Williams - because of the top down map perspective you can see what is in the valley beyond, you just cant see who is there if "who" happens to be the enemy. I think the AI, not the player, should get access to reverse LOS from the players units. That way once the AI spots a player unit it could better determine a path to avoid fire than the current 'lets keep advancing thru the beaten zone' method.

The player gets a lot more battle info than he would IRL.

Re: cheating - I'd like to see a realism option that would include:
1. remove the enemy Force Morale meter
2. show VLs but not their current ownership
3. only show enemy teams in LOS of the currently selected Player team
4. only show enemy KIAs, and play KIA vox cues, if there is a clear LOS to them from the selected Player team (no more recon by death cry)
5. do not show enemy team info after a team is KIA

[stolidog]

Good ideas, I have never thought about it before, but I like the idea of not showing the other players force morale, makes sense

Also, I havent checked this in LSA, but it use to be that the hosting player got info. that vehicles were damaged, imobilized etc.

[7A_Woulf]

Check enemy LOS in three steps without cheating:

1) Look at the map, big square things with roofs tends to blocks LOS...
2) Check LOS from your own unit, if you can see it's most likely that the enemy can see.
3) Move a squad in the area; -If they starts to scream, bleed and fall to the ground you can be sure that the enemy have LOS... [:'(]

[Southernland]

ORIGINAL: xe5

@A.Williams - because of the top down map perspective you can see what is in the valley beyond, you just cant see who is there if "who" happens to be the enemy. I think the AI, not the player, should get access to reverse LOS from the players units. That way once the AI spots a player unit it could better determine a path to avoid fire than the current 'lets keep advancing thru the beaten zone' method.

The player gets a lot more battle info than he would IRL.

Re: cheating - I'd like to see a realism option that would include:
1. remove the enemy Force Morale meter
2. show VLs but not their current ownership
3. only show enemy teams in LOS of the currently selected Player team
4. only show enemy KIAs, and play KIA vox cues, if there is a clear LOS to them from the selected Player team (no more recon by death cry)
5. do not show enemy team info after a team is KIA

6. don't show when an enemy tank has lost it's main gun

[xe5]

7. remove access to detailed enemy BG info in the strat level
8. randomize timer endings by +/- 3 minutes
9. show all non-controlled territory as dark on the deploy screen - show no neutral zones

[zon]

I'm just talking about a LOS tool to get a good sense of the terrain, whether from your own units or whatever. It's a freaking guessing game right now. If I could zoom down to the terrain level and pan around, I guess it wouldn't be necessary. I'd like to get a good sense of LOS from A to B, whether it's from a tree to a house, or tank to tank.

[xe5]

One of the reasons trying to gauge LOS is such a guessing game is due to the lack of comprehensive elevation info. Right click and drag on map doesnt come close to telling you what contour lines would. As a kludge, Im gradually replacing the OVMs with the map's elevation image in 5CC. Not pretty by any means but more informative than right clicking the map.

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: zon

I'm just talking about a LOS tool to get a good sense of the terrain, whether from your own units or whatever. It's a freaking guessing game right now. If I could zoom down to the terrain level and pan around, I guess it wouldn't be necessary. I'd like to get a good sense of LOS from A to B, whether it's from a tree to a house, or tank to tank.

Well, you can right click anywhere on the map and get the elevation. Hold down the rmb and drag across the field to get the lay of the land. If there are undulations, dips, small bumps they will show as you drag across the ground.

I'm not sure if you have Matrix's Combat Command: Battles from the Bulge, but if you do, check out the profile tool: Click point A and then click on Point B and it will give you a simple elevation profile of the ground. Quite handy and not really cheating at that operational level scale. The game also has a LOS tool which grants you the ability to click anywhere to see exactly what that piece of ground can see, this is a little more cheating but I still use it from time to time.

[Andrew Williams]

1 - 9 all good ideas to be put into realism switches

Maybe our realism  indicator now should only max out at 55%

[Andrew Williams]

@A.Williams - because of the top down map perspective you can see what is in the valley beyond, you just cant see who is there if "who" happens to be the enemy.

We always know what's over the hill... just not who's there

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/aerialk ... index.html

[Tejszd]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

1 - 9 all good ideas to be put into realism switches

Maybe our realism  indicator now should only max out at 55%

Agreed, good suggestions!!! Maybe after the bug fix patches???

[xe5]

10. No mouseover enemy 'health heads' or team class info on the toolbar
11. Use generic enemy icons on the overview map. Dont have icon showing team class such as Cmd or MG team
12. Dont show the primed bridge icon. We shouldnt know a German BG just moved onto Nijmegen Br this strat turn
13. Use generic enemy icons on the strat map until the enemy BG remains on a contested map
14. No AP/AT strength icons above BG icons on strat map. Let it be my bad for not buying a 'zook
15. Allied strat recon is too perfect. Randomize the chance of spotting Axis BGs. eg. Panzers near Arnhem were a surprise

[zon]

ORIGINAL: Southern_land
Checking Reverse LOS (heretoforeafter known as CHEATING) you can see what the enemy see and move your troops accordingly to stop them shooting at you by
..........reading their minds?
..........Using the powers of the entire US covert survailance apparatus
..........The hand of God?

ORIGINAL: 7A_Woulf

Check enemy LOS in three steps without cheating:

1) Look at the map, big square things with roofs tends to blocks LOS...
2) Check LOS from your own unit, if you can see it's most likely that the enemy can see.
3) Move a squad in the area; -If they starts to scream, bleed and fall to the ground you can be sure that the enemy have LOS... [:'(]

Cheating is a strong word. Let's not forget we're playing a game where we play with a magical bird's-eye view of a battle map while beaming down orders to sprite-based beings that run around at our command. We can hear battle cries and death screams from kilometres away. We got numbers written on the roofs to let us know how many storeys we're dealing with. I can click a couple buttons to make trees invisible. Right click, and you can get terrain elevation to a half metre, on ground your troops can`t even see!

What I think would work really well is something like a right click or middle click function to draw a line anywhere on the map to see if there is LOS from point A to B. It's an additional way to get information to the commander (you and me), supplementing the limits of a 2D map in understanding the ground, not just elevation but the effect of wrecks, fences, buildings, etc. on LOS.

[zon]

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

ORIGINAL: zon

I'm just talking about a LOS tool to get a good sense of the terrain, whether from your own units or whatever. It's a freaking guessing game right now. If I could zoom down to the terrain level and pan around, I guess it wouldn't be necessary. I'd like to get a good sense of LOS from A to B, whether it's from a tree to a house, or tank to tank.

Well, you can right click anywhere on the map and get the elevation. Hold down the rmb and drag across the field to get the lay of the land. If there are undulations, dips, small bumps they will show as you drag across the ground.

I'm not sure if you have Matrix's Combat Command: Battles from the Bulge, but if you do, check out the profile tool: Click point A and then click on Point B and it will give you a simple elevation profile of the ground. Quite handy and not really cheating at that operational level scale. The game also has a LOS tool which grants you the ability to click anywhere to see exactly what that piece of ground can see, this is a little more cheating but I still use it from time to time.

Pretty close to what I would like to see, and isn`t much different than drawing out a line from an enemy unit. In fact, it`s the same thing.