Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

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KenchiSulla
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by KenchiSulla »

I'd also suggest that the idea that plants with manual backups will be able to avoid the sequelae of such attacks is misguided. Humans work at a particular speed and no faster both in terms of cognition and physical action. The people who designed this malware, almost certainly in America, would have no trouble at all getting the sort of military and psychological input to ensure that the cascade of failures that would be engendered would be such that it would overload those attempting to counter the effects and

Nemo, I agree with you partially. But there is a bright side. I believe it is very hard to find a plant that is relying ONLY on software and human input. The critical systems usually have mechanical fallbacks.. Those cannot be influenced by a virus. Most common failure reason for those is -- bad maintenance...

I do believe you can shut a system down, or even damage parts of a process - it will just be very hard to cause catastrophic damage. If you are able to cause catastrophic damage manipulating a PCS/DCS the plant probably has design flaws... (A certain rig in the gulf of mexico anyone?)
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Sardaukar
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: stuman

"People don't realise just how easily and quickly humans get overwhelmed in terms of their cognitions. "

I believe that. I seem to get overwhelmed everyday: kids, wife, employees, clients, IRS, vendors, bureaucrats of all types. It's enough to drive a man to drink. [:)]

Beware of strong drink, it can lead a man to shoot at tax collectors - and miss.
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Razz1
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Razz1 »

Mechanical systems will always work.

That's why us old dogs don't like PC's.

The only way to break us is to put a wrench inbetween the gears.

Transportation is already run by electronics.

Once guns become controled by electronics... its every man for himself with a knife and musket.
bretg80
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by bretg80 »

Hey Guys, welcome to the 21st century, everything is controlled by computers these days. That's why this probably worked. They couldn't have done it during WW2, cause you're right, back then only bombs or internal sabotage worked, and there was plenty of that too.

Any how, it was an interesting subject to discuss.

Back to WitpAE. [:)]

Thanks for reading and sharing.
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Canoerebel »

Have you ever thought about this:

As recently as sixty years ago, America was very much an agricultural nation. There were countless small farms and farmers that had the livestock, equipment, and know how sufficient to raise crops. Many rural families in America didn't even realize there was a Great Depression because so many raised their own food and were essentially self-sufficient.

Today our agriculture is much more centralized - big farms utilizing big equipment requiring lots of energy.

If we encountered severe fuel shortages due to supply limitations or disruptions in distribution, how would we feed ourselves? It would take many years to restore any semblance of the self-sufficient small farm capability of the past. A tremendous shortage of livestock, old-fashioned tools, and know how would result in widespread and serious shortages of food as a largely urban nation found itself no longer able to produce food in vast, efficient ways.

I don't like thinking about that.
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RUDOLF
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by RUDOLF »

ORIGINAL: bretg80

First off, I believe this is probably legit. Second, I believe this is as significant to our generation as the development of the Nuke was during WW2. Third, if we can do it, so can they, so look out.

Our world is changing. If you ever saw the Star Trek episode where they were fighting a war with computers, you realize the significance of this development.

Just wanted to make everyone aware of this new development in our world.

Oh and they speculate that the virus was delivered on a memory stick by the Contractor who services the plant. I'm sure the Contractor had no idea they were spreading the virus as it has propagated to all the locations they support.

This is a very sophisticated attack. I encourage you to read more about it if you are into wargames and military history as we are living it now and we may be playing wargames like this in the future.







In your comments above you say that you consider this kind of attack's as legit, I am very curious to why you would think so.

Today Media reported that Iran had been targeted as well.
This goes straight against the MITIR's Approach, something who experts think will harm the US greatly in the long run.
http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/us-iran.html



MIT:
1. Begin the dialogue on equal footing
2. Don’t miss any more diplomatic opportunities
3. Recognize when, with whom, and how to dialogue
4. Engage Iran
4.1. Recognize the benefits of engagement
4.2. Engage empathetically
4.3. Engage knowledgeably
5. Find common ground in Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Decrease the nuclear threat by building trust
6.1. Avoid force and threats of force
6.2. Refrain from nuclear sabotage
6.3. Adopt an innovative approach towards nuclear negotiations
7. Enlist Iranian help in forging an Arab-Israeli peace deal
8. Give Iran a stake in the global economy
9. Frustrate spoilers
10. Combine popular and formal diplomacy
11. Promote democracy through a bona fide engagement
12. Adopt a human rights-centered diplomacy











bretg80
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by bretg80 »

ORIGINAL: RUDOLF
ORIGINAL: bretg80

First off, I believe this is probably legit. Second, I believe this is as significant to our generation as the development of the Nuke was during WW2. Third, if we can do it, so can they, so look out.

Our world is changing. If you ever saw the Star Trek episode where they were fighting a war with computers, you realize the significance of this development.

Just wanted to make everyone aware of this new development in our world.

Oh and they speculate that the virus was delivered on a memory stick by the Contractor who services the plant. I'm sure the Contractor had no idea they were spreading the virus as it has propagated to all the locations they support.

This is a very sophisticated attack. I encourage you to read more about it if you are into wargames and military history as we are living it now and we may be playing wargames like this in the future.







In your comments above you say that you consider this kind of attack's as legit, I am very curious to why you would think so.

Today Media reported that Iran had been targeted as well.
This goes straight against the MITIR's Approach, something who experts think will harm the US greatly in the long run.
http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/us-iran.html



MIT:
1. Begin the dialogue on equal footing
2. Don’t miss any more diplomatic opportunities
3. Recognize when, with whom, and how to dialogue
4. Engage Iran
4.1. Recognize the benefits of engagement
4.2. Engage empathetically
4.3. Engage knowledgeably
5. Find common ground in Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Decrease the nuclear threat by building trust
6.1. Avoid force and threats of force
6.2. Refrain from nuclear sabotage
6.3. Adopt an innovative approach towards nuclear negotiations
7. Enlist Iranian help in forging an Arab-Israeli peace deal
8. Give Iran a stake in the global economy
9. Frustrate spoilers
10. Combine popular and formal diplomacy
11. Promote democracy through a bona fide engagement
12. Adopt a human rights-centered diplomacy
Hey Rudolf, I meant that the worm is not a hoax and that it appears to be a legitimate virus. I didn't say that I support cyber warfare one way or another, in the end it is weapon of war and if we can do it, so can they and I don't like to think about the retaliatory aspect of it.

That is why I said we are in a new world. Maybe a little more scary than in the past. To Canoerebel's point, if someone hits us hard enough, we city dwellers could be in a world of hurt that I don't want to think about either.

As far as Iran goes, I perceive their current government as equivalent to that of the Nazi's and I doubt that anyone will ever be able to successfully negotiate with them. The only benefit to the Cyber attack in my opinion is that it possibly preempted a conventional strike and may have saved a lot of innocent civilians. All we can hope for is that Iran overthrows their current government. If not, I believe we will be at war with Iran in the near future. You can't negotiate with a country that wants to take over the world.

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Dili
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Dili »

1. Begin the dialogue on equal footing
2. Don’t miss any more diplomatic opportunities
3. Recognize when, with whom, and how to dialogue
4. Engage Iran
4.1. Recognize the benefits of engagement
4.2. Engage empathetically
4.3. Engage knowledgeably
5. Find common ground in Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Decrease the nuclear threat by building trust
6.1. Avoid force and threats of force
6.2. Refrain from nuclear sabotage
6.3. Adopt an innovative approach towards nuclear negotiations
7. Enlist Iranian help in forging an Arab-Israeli peace deal
8. Give Iran a stake in the global economy
9. Frustrate spoilers
10. Combine popular and formal diplomacy
11. Promote democracy through a bona fide engagement
12. Adopt a human rights-centered diplomacy

hahah hilarious a nice list of mutual exclusive options...
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Historiker
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Historiker »

MIT:
1. Begin the dialogue on equal footing
2. Don’t miss any more diplomatic opportunities
3. Recognize when, with whom, and how to dialogue
4. Engage Iran
4.1. Recognize the benefits of engagement
4.2. Engage empathetically
4.3. Engage knowledgeably
5. Find common ground in Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Decrease the nuclear threat by building trust
6.1. Avoid force and threats of force
6.2. Refrain from nuclear sabotage
6.3. Adopt an innovative approach towards nuclear negotiations
7. Enlist Iranian help in forging an Arab-Israeli peace deal
8. Give Iran a stake in the global economy
9. Frustrate spoilers
10. Combine popular and formal diplomacy
11. Promote democracy through a bona fide engagement
12. Adopt a human rights-centered diplomacy
Sounds like "peace in our time is secured!"
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stuman
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by stuman »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
MIT:
1. Begin the dialogue on equal footing
2. Don’t miss any more diplomatic opportunities
3. Recognize when, with whom, and how to dialogue
4. Engage Iran
4.1. Recognize the benefits of engagement
4.2. Engage empathetically
4.3. Engage knowledgeably
5. Find common ground in Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Decrease the nuclear threat by building trust
6.1. Avoid force and threats of force
6.2. Refrain from nuclear sabotage
6.3. Adopt an innovative approach towards nuclear negotiations
7. Enlist Iranian help in forging an Arab-Israeli peace deal
8. Give Iran a stake in the global economy
9. Frustrate spoilers
10. Combine popular and formal diplomacy
11. Promote democracy through a bona fide engagement
12. Adopt a human rights-centered diplomacy
Sounds like "peace in our time is secured!"
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ChickenOfTheSea
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by ChickenOfTheSea »

Rudolf,
You automatically assume a cyber attack on Iran would come from the US. That is an extremely limited world view and probably wrong in this case.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen
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Razz1
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Razz1 »

Isreal has more to benefit since they are the first Target.

Do you think they may have done this attack?

It could even be the fanatical Green movement organizations.

Maybe Rudolf needs to where glasses and open up his perspective on Global Politics.

You know... maybe his mind is still frozen from that Minnesota winter.
aspqrz02
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by aspqrz02 »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
I'd also suggest that the idea that plants with manual backups will be able to avoid the sequelae of such attacks is misguided. Humans work at a particular speed and no faster both in terms of cognition and physical action. The people who designed this malware, almost certainly in America, would have no trouble at all getting the sort of military and psychological input to ensure that the cascade of failures that would be engendered would be such that it would overload those attempting to counter the effects and

Nemo, I agree with you partially. But there is a bright side. I believe it is very hard to find a plant that is relying ONLY on software and human input. The critical systems usually have mechanical fallbacks.. Those cannot be influenced by a virus. Most common failure reason for those is -- bad maintenance...

I do believe you can shut a system down, or even damage parts of a process - it will just be very hard to cause catastrophic damage. If you are able to cause catastrophic damage manipulating a PCS/DCS the plant probably has design flaws... (A certain rig in the gulf of mexico anyone?)

The problem is not so much the issue of whether the plant has mechanical backups or not, it is more in the issue of interconnectedness now controlled by computers.

I write Role Playing Game supplements and, a couple of years ago, wrote one based on a long time interest in this sort of issue (no plug! just fact) and while doing research for it found out some interesting things from official US government sources.

They were surveys by various USG instrumentalities into the damage that could be done to the US by various levels of nuclear strikes and, more importantly, how readily the US would be able to "recover" (for some definitions of "recover") from such, economically and industrially.

Now, given that these scenarios are, I believe, insanely optimistic, it was interesting that the older ones from the 60's and 70's were, in some ways, more optimistic than the most recent one(s) from the 80's and later ... now, I am currently in Auckland, NZ, after 10 weeks on Holiday in the US, and so don't have access to all my research notes, but, from memory, let me explain why ...

According to the most recent studies, the institution of "just in time" inventory control systems was a major reason for the change in attitudes towards the rate of recovery (or whether recovery would be possible at all before total economic collapse) ... the earlier era estimates assumed large on-hand stocks that could be used to replace disrupted or destroyed production for long enough for what factories were left to swing back into operation at a level that would sustain the much reduced population and economy surviving the nuclear strike.

The more recent estimates made the clear point that JIT inventory control meant that there was no longer any such buffer and that this had *serious* implications for the possibility and/or likelihood of any successful reconstruction effort as it was, the authors of the studies implied, at least somewhat likely that there would not be enough of a buffer to tide over the survivors of such an event until they could get production etc. back on track enough to prevent societal and economic collapse.

Now, from memory, the most recent of those was late 80's, and the world has grown *much* more interconnected since then ... and is growing more and more interconnected every day.

So, if a cyber attack was able to bring down the Internet Backbone ... or disrupt it ... for long enough, the knock on effects could be quite devastating.

My personal opinion is that it is not at the stage at the moment where that is likely, and that the possibility of such a devastating attack is quite low even if you are very pessimistic, but YMMV.

Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by Mynok »

ORIGINAL: Razz

Mechanical systems will always work.

You can't really believe this......[8|]
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Razz

Mechanical systems will always work.

You can't really believe this......[8|]


Only in Tom Clancy novels [:D]
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stuman
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by stuman »

hmm, maybe time for me to buy that farm up in the Ozarks I have been thinking about.
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bretg80
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by bretg80 »

Why did we get bumped to the war room? [&:]

It looks like Iran has finally admitted they are infected.
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RE: Stuxnet - cyber war is here - it's not your Dad's war anymore

Post by bigred »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Have you ever thought about this:

As recently as sixty years ago, America was very much an agricultural nation. There were countless small farms and farmers that had the livestock, equipment, and know how sufficient to raise crops. Many rural families in America didn't even realize there was a Great Depression because so many raised their own food and were essentially self-sufficient.

Today our agriculture is much more centralized - big farms utilizing big equipment requiring lots of energy.

If we encountered severe fuel shortages due to supply limitations or disruptions in distribution, how would we feed ourselves? It would take many years to restore any semblance of the self-sufficient small farm capability of the past. A tremendous shortage of livestock, old-fashioned tools, and know how would result in widespread and serious shortages of food as a largely urban nation found itself no longer able to produce food in vast, efficient ways.

I don't like thinking about that.


Interesting thought. Last week I interviewed a baker for a shop in my small rural shopping center where I operate a 5 lane grocery store. He is thinking about utilizing a closed BBQ resturant w/ a large brick/wood fired stove to bake his bread. 20 miles from my location we have a paint plant converted to biodeisel. I also have a local police officer
whose family cans enough food for the next year. I suspect rural america will always be very fine. Not so sure about suburbs.
---bigred---

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