Alternative History for the Historically Minded

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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GaryChildress
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: MateDow
ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
...For instance, I've created a CVL conversion of the Omaha class cruisers which, though never implemented, was in fact once thought over by the US Navy. Why not create a "bind" in the editor whereby the player could convert Omaha class CLs to CVLs IN GAME? Is that any more objectionable than creating binds for the Japanese to turn Fuso into a flight deck battleship and what not? It gives the player a little more flexibility over his building program and if players can already buildout ships which were historically never refitted during the war, then why not give the player more room to convert different ships into different types of refits?

Just a thought. I'm curious what the strictly history buffs think of the idea? [:)]

I have no problem with conversions like the Omaha-class CVL or CLAA when they are backed up by real data. For the US ships, I think that this data is contained in books like Friedman's US Cruisers, and is based on real design studies made by the US Navy. These will probably be very expensive conversions similar in cost to those performed on the West Virginia, California or Tennessee. There was a reason that these conversions were not carried out in wartime, and the cost should reflect that.

For the British ships, where there were other C-class and D-class (?) cruisers converted to a CLAA standard, that should also be an option, just not an inexpensive one. I am not sure if the British shipyards would have enough spare capacity to make such a conversion, or if the Americans would have diverted the effort away from their own conversions. These were cruisers that were older than the Omahas that the US did not take the effort to convert even when they were already in the shipyard for extensive repairs.

Yes, shipyard time and space are the real limitations here. With the yards going at full capacity during WWII it's hard to imagine that there was any extra space available for additional conversions other than what historically happened. So maybe it's best to leave the CL->CVL conversions to the truly alternative history mods.
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oldman45
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by oldman45 »

Gary they had enough yard space to convert the clevelands to independance class, so putting in 1 or 2 of the omaha should not be that big a deal. An alternative would be to allow more of the clevelands to be converted.
mike scholl 1
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: MateDow
ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
...For instance, I've created a CVL conversion of the Omaha class cruisers which, though never implemented, was in fact once thought over by the US Navy. Why not create a "bind" in the editor whereby the player could convert Omaha class CLs to CVLs IN GAME? Is that any more objectionable than creating binds for the Japanese to turn Fuso into a flight deck battleship and what not? It gives the player a little more flexibility over his building program and if players can already buildout ships which were historically never refitted during the war, then why not give the player more room to convert different ships into different types of refits?

Just a thought. I'm curious what the strictly history buffs think of the idea? [:)]

I Believe BuShips nixed any CVL conversion of the Omaha's because the hulls were too narrow and the displacement too small to be practical.
GaryChildress
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
...For instance, I've created a CVL conversion of the Omaha class cruisers which, though never implemented, was in fact once thought over by the US Navy. Why not create a "bind" in the editor whereby the player could convert Omaha class CLs to CVLs IN GAME? Is that any more objectionable than creating binds for the Japanese to turn Fuso into a flight deck battleship and what not? It gives the player a little more flexibility over his building program and if players can already buildout ships which were historically never refitted during the war, then why not give the player more room to convert different ships into different types of refits?

Just a thought. I'm curious what the strictly history buffs think of the idea? [:)]

I Believe BuShips nixed any CVL conversion of the Omaha's because the hulls were too narrow and the displacement too small to be practical.

Yeah I was thinking that too. The Omahas are pretty narrow even compared to the Bogue class CVEs. [X(]
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Shark7
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Gary they had enough yard space to convert the clevelands to independance class, so putting in 1 or 2 of the omaha should not be that big a deal. An alternative would be to allow more of the clevelands to be converted.

Also, as opposed to conversion, if one took an alternate history path where the Washington and London treaties never existed, many of those 'design studies' could have become ships.
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DOCUP
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by DOCUP »

Gary I have to agree with you on your frist statement. I like that the devs gave us a chance to play a game like this. I would like a little more wiggle room with somethings. I haven't made it that far into the games vs AI but am playing GC in stock and Alt Scn. If you look at it the IJN player gets to mess around with production in several areas. So why can't the Allies.

doc
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oldman45
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by oldman45 »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Gary I have to agree with you on your frist statement. I like that the devs gave us a chance to play a game like this. I would like a little more wiggle room with somethings. I haven't made it that far into the games vs AI but am playing GC in stock and Alt Scn. If you look at it the IJN player gets to mess around with production in several areas. So why can't the Allies.

doc

Its always been that way with Gary's games. The underdog gets to play with all the toys ;)
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DOCUP
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by DOCUP »

I use to think I knew a lot about WW2 until I came here that is. I quite enjoy the history lessons, now I'm more annoying to my friends. Getting to the point now could someone share there what if references with me so I can see for myself. Thanks

doc
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by USS Henrico »

The USN decides not to wait for the Essex class carriers. Instead of buildiing all the North Carolina/South Dakota BBs, they produce a couple more Yorktown class CVs similar to Hornet. These shouldn't require anymore shipbuilding capacity than was historically present and would arrive in late 1942.
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stuman
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by stuman »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Gary I have to agree with you on your frist statement. I like that the devs gave us a chance to play a game like this. I would like a little more wiggle room with somethings. I haven't made it that far into the games vs AI but am playing GC in stock and Alt Scn. If you look at it the IJN player gets to mess around with production in several areas. So why can't the Allies.

doc


The following may sound like too pat an answer, but imo I think that of the two sides, there is a lot more room for improvement regarding the Japanese conduct of their overall war effort from beginning to end compared to that of the Allies. This is a gross generalization of course, and I am not trying to start a big debate [:)]. Just a partial explanation as to why, in this game, the Japanese have a few more knobs to turn than do the Allies.
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DOCUP
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by DOCUP »

I can't say much about the Japanese side. I have not played it. I was just goig on what I have read in the forum. I also don't want to start a riot. Just saying my 2 cents which due to the current inflation, I owe China 2 euros.

doc
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Pascal_slith
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Pascal_slith »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I use to think I knew a lot about WW2 until I came here that is. I quite enjoy the history lessons, now I'm more annoying to my friends. Getting to the point now could someone share there what if references with me so I can see for myself. Thanks

doc

Best general histories are:

Ronald Spector "Eagle against the Sun"

John Costello "The Pacific War"

More specific:

John Lundstrom "Black-shoe Carrier Admiral"

Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully "Shattered Sword"

Dallas Isom "Midway Inquest"

H.P. Wilmott "Empires in the Balance" and "The Barrier and the Javelin"

Eric Bergerud "Fire in the Sky"

For the Japanese decision-making process, an excellent summary of the work of Robert Morley was done in the chapter on the decision for war by Ian Kershaw in "Fateful Choices"
So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

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stuman
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by stuman »

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I use to think I knew a lot about WW2 until I came here that is. I quite enjoy the history lessons, now I'm more annoying to my friends. Getting to the point now could someone share there what if references with me so I can see for myself. Thanks

doc

Best general histories are:

Ronald Spector "Eagle against the Sun"

John Costello "The Pacific War"

More specific:

John Lundstrom "Black-shoe Carrier Admiral"

Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully "Shattered Sword"

Dallas Isom "Midway Inquest"

H.P. Wilmott "Empires in the Balance" and "The Barrier and the Javelin"

Eric Bergerud "Fire in the Sky"

For the Japanese decision-making process, an excellent summary of the work of Robert Morley was done in the chapter on the decision for war by Ian Kershaw in "Fateful Choices"


I would like to add Bergerud's " Touched with Fire " to that list. It discusses the land war in the S. Pacific area. A great, and sad, read.
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Pascal_slith
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Pascal_slith »

Also John Lundstrom's other 3 books: "First Team", "First Team at Guadalcanal", and "The First South Pacific Campaign"

Also "Guadalcanal" by Richard Frank
So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

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Pascal_slith
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Pascal_slith »

Oh, and don't forget

Evans and Peattie's "Kaigun" and Peattie's "Sunburst"
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stuman
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by stuman »

Hmm, I see at least six books I haven't read on those above lists. I see my fall reading schedule laid out before me [:)]
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topeverest
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by topeverest »

Gary,

I agree with you, and I have done similar tinkering, mostly with the Empire. I have focused on them as the weaker side to provide more options for conversions, especially cruiser options. I view the allies in little need of more toys, especially in the last 18 months of the war. Something that could affect the allies in the first part of the war and not be overly powerful I certainly would add.

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Shark7
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Gary,

I agree with you, and I have done similar tinkering, mostly with the Empire. I have focused on them as the weaker side to provide more options for conversions, especially cruiser options. I view the allies in little need of more toys, especially in the last 18 months of the war. Something that could affect the allies in the first part of the war and not be overly powerful I certainly would add.


There were a ton of WWI and interwar DDs that could have been retained or had been decommissioned but not quite made it to the scrapper yet. Allies are definately DD poor for the first 6 months of the war.
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Heeward
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by Heeward »

Dallas Isom "Midway Inquest"  - does this book give significant insight over Jonathan Parshall's and Anthony Tully's "Shattered Sword?
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RE: Alternative History for the Historically Minded

Post by JSBoomer »

Gary and Dixie, I like both of your ideas. Gary, have you made the pics for your omaha CVL? I rather liked the Vindictive one you did previously.
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