Elsenborn Ridge - Germans

[wodin]

I always stayed away from large scenarios in the previous games...however as the Bulge has so many I decided to go for it...the lesson is you have to rely on your sub's more and give orders to regiment or even brigade level....on the odd occasion when the need arises you can give orders lower down....it does demand a different way of playing and to be honest I really enjoyed it...it was liberating....I suggest the Road to Bastogne scenario as the Germans...thats the one I went for and found it alot easier to manage than previously imagined...there are still large scenarios I look at and find daunting....but once you get started with them it becomes second nature....I also find checking all the Obj's and the time they turn on or off and then plan accordingly...

So go for it....and think at the level of a higher commander looking at the scenario form an operational view rather than the smaller scenarios which is more tactical. At times you will jump in and give orders to the odd company and battalion...I also always man manage my art...by that I mean at the start I give each of my heavy Arty a defend in situ command....then when the battlefield moves out of range (or just before) I give them a move\defend order closer to the action.

[tyrspawn]

Excellent read.

[Nikolaj]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I appreciate them.

@Wodin: When ordering brigades and regiments around, don't you ever have trouble with them taking too long to carry out your orders? As I said, I sometimes see them take over a day to carry out an attack. I may be doing something wrong, I'm not sure, but I'll experiment a bit more with it. I'm doing the Peiper Crosses the Meuse scenario, at the moment, but I'll try out Road to Bastogne afterwards. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Troy6677]

Nikolaj:

Superb AAR. One of the best I have read. Very informative and your style of writing makes it a fun read as well.

So far my favorite scenario is Peiper's race for the Meuse as well though I have only played a couple so far. BTW, your Peiper pictures and captions were quite hilarious too. [;)]

I will have to try Elsenborn Ridge. It looks like a fun challenge.

Mark

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj

Thanks for the comments, guys. I appreciate them.

@Wodin: When ordering brigades and regiments around, don't you ever have trouble with them taking too long to carry out your orders? As I said, I sometimes see them take over a day to carry out an attack. I may be doing something wrong, I'm not sure, but I'll experiment a bit more with it.

wodin

@Nikolaj: That exactly were things I was curious about in this post:
tm.asp?m=2614424

What do you think?

[simovitch]

make sure your Regt HQ's are close to your subordinate HQ's. That's really about all you can do unless you can give the Regt HQ the command at the start if the scenarios specifies "no orders delay at start."

[Nikolaj]

ORIGINAL: mvdh1

Nikolaj:

Superb AAR. One of the best I have read. Very informative and your style of writing makes it a fun read as well.

So far my favorite scenario is Peiper's race for the Meuse as well though I have only played a couple so far. BTW, your Peiper pictures and captions were quite hilarious too. [;)]

I will have to try Elsenborn Ridge. It looks like a fun challenge.

Mark

Thanks, you're making me blush.

In case you didn't know, the pictures I used for Peiper are actually of the actor, Derren Nesbitt, from the (excellent) film Where Eagles Dare.

I definitely recommend this scenario. It's not my favourite so far, but it's still a lot of fun, and in my opinion, quite a challenge. I'll definitely have to return to it, at some point.

@johndoesecond: I posted a reply in your thread. Sorry for the delay, but I'm a bit stressed at the moment.

@Simovitch: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Should come in handy, or so I hope.

[CaptCarnage]

Let's reactive an old but excellent topic

Got a question here: I play Elsenborn now for the 2nd time - the first time, I got stuck in the woods for way too long. Didn't get Losheimergraben before well into Day 2.
The second time, I did a lot of stepping in and ordered companies on extended firing missions, to dislodge the troops blocking the forest tracks and to chase the troops out of their fortified positions at Losheimergraben. This time around, I got Losheimergraben at about 22:00 on Day 1. However, personally ordering those companies is a bit... gamey, too much micro.

You however, managed to occupy it at 12:39 Day 1! How? I use the same forces, 27 and 48. You give them an attack order? On my first try, I also sent the 48th up north, to attack Losheimergraben from the north, and the 27th from the south east. However, 48th got stuck on the crossroads and 27th was at it alone for a long time.

How on earth did you manage to take it after 6 and a half hours?

(excellent AAR by the way )

[Lieste]

Not sure, as I haven't analysed the local combat for this segment of the combat, but I suspect a combination of "high losses" and initially "high aggression" to get troops deployed with few(er) casualties (aggro) and no retreating from those taken (losses)...

Combined with neutralising fires from direct fire weapons, indirect mortars and artillery, and a progressive relaxation of aggro from high to medium, to get troops moving forwards.

Orders given may also have been move with attacks and bypass, rather than a formal attack, to get the forward momentum earlier, although with more friction if opposition is heavy. The route of approach may also have been from a flank, avoiding the obvious routes along the trails, but that is less certain, and might have less effect... however, careful selection of FUP and approach routes can give concealment and cover for much of the attacking force in some circumstances so a quick terrain analysis often pays off. (Assuming that one isn't pausing unless absolutely necessary (ie for changing order durations and start times - these changes only stick if done while not running).

[CaptCarnage]

This is so unfair....

I manage to get about 21.9 out of 22.5 completion points of Kampfgruppe Peiper out until it closes...
Reason why the last 3 units wouldn't exit is ... a 24h refueling job?

Anyway, I was thinking, 21.9 points is not bad - so I continue, secure Honsfeld, Hunningen, Murringen, after of course securing Bucholz and Losheimergraben... which is amounts to 47 points I am not mistaken... plus those of getting Peiper out, I should win the scenario (finally! I tried about seven times this week).

But no! Marginal defeat, giving me 62 points, and the Allies 100 points. Why

[Agema]

I've found this is an extraordinarily hard mission as the Germans.

A good assault - usually with micromanaged, directed artillery - is generally quite capable of claiming Bucholz Station and Losheimergraben and getting to het edge of the forest by afternoon day 1, and getting a battalion or two out of the forests in the north. (I find the units in the central areas far too resilient for a substantial advance, particularly the two infuriating platoons, one an AT, mentioned in the AAR).

From there, I can normally break out in the south into Hunningen and Honsfeld. KG Peiper can shatter the Yanks in the area overnight and into the morning of the 2nd whilst the 27th, 48th and FJ recover, and as you draw away Peiper to the exit point in the afternoon/ night of the 2nd, the VGs/FJs can take over and carry on the main effort.

However, I find Rocherath-Krinkelt an impossible mission until very late. On day 1 there are arty battalions always deployed nearby, and despite not being frontline troops, they're perfectly capable of throwing back any of the rubbishy VG battalions you do get out of the forests, or otherwise holding them off long enough for the villages to fill up with ominous quantities of infantry with armoured support.

From this point in, it's just a slog, and a miserable one given the weight of American artillery.

* * *

The issue is that the AI is more aggressive and less heedful of casualties than any human. AI forces are always pouring forwards, including wandering down roads to objectives they've long since lost. Although you can ultimately rip them to shreds, you simply can't advance quickly.

And so I tend to get the same sort of AARs as recorded here - vast quantities more casualties inflicted on the Americans than I've suffered (and the 99th and 2nd divisions essentially annihilated), but the big scoring Objs and exit points tantalisingly beyond reach.

[Lieste]

Yes, the recognition that the front line is 'gone' and digging in on the fall back, rather than trying to grab the victory points 'because the objective is still open for 24 hours' and was important to keep initially would both help the AI perform better, and also make the AI's behaviour feel more human...

Yes, if I think I have a chance to take it, I might have a go... but otherwise I'll block, delay, screen and try to get the second line impenetrable. The AI often gets his forces out of position, cut off and eliminated - which makes late progress rapid (ish - fatigue allowing) and allows the player to go for force destruction, rather than territory as a decisive victory strategy.

Treating the VL as places to keep the enemy out of, rather than places to hold (a subtle distinction, but important) also would help. Finding a closing mobility corridors, and keeping a minimal rear area force securing the objective, falling back as needed, is generally a far better plan than trying to hold 'this spot' by garrisoning it heavily.
This is possible to do with AI objectives, but they still suffer from the problem of being an irresistible flame for the AI, or are given up before they are pressured, if they expire and move rearwards...


 

[Nikolaj]

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh

You however, managed to occupy it at 12:39 Day 1! How? I use the same forces, 27 and 48. You give them an attack order? On my first try, I also sent the 48th up north, to attack Losheimergraben from the north, and the 27th from the south east. However, 48th got stuck on the crossroads and 27th was at it alone for a long time.

How on earth did you manage to take it after 6 and a half hours?

To be honest, I don't quite remember.

I think, although i'm not sure, that I've had the same experience as you when replaying the scenario, that is being unable to take Losheimergraben early. I think in the AAR the AI withdrew some of troops defending the town, but again I'm not sure. In any case, I had only technically occupied the town by 12.39, since several enemy units were still troubling me in that area.

A lot of if's and maybe's, I know. It's been a while.

[Pawsy]

Just played the scenario on realistic. I found the following helped:

Change formation frontage to 300m
Successive line formation - I want units to go down the fastest route/road/track
Give an attack order on day one to the edge of the woods in the south
You need to plan to move your arty forward to support the attack on the deep objectives
Use some of the Regt level units as security at road junctions

I also adopted some Soviet tactics and sent two unit attacks up the same axis but the second one delayed by 30mins or so. The first Bn hits the enemy position and engages. The second then effectively carries out a echelon change and continues the attack on an already weakened enemy. You need to create a carpet over which Peiper and 12 SS can travel over before launching out of the woods I didnt want them having to fight in the woods. I also sequenced the attack in the north to begin first as a deception to draw the enemy units away from the south. This worked well. The southern attacks went in an hour after the north and after clearing the woods were able to get to Bullingen on day three. The 3 companies of the 501 is now stopped at Bullingen and their refueling! 1st SS Pz Bn in a good position to the south. But its all too late. Not good enough as the Peiper exits have expired. I think I will switch the 12 SS to the south next time and then attack north towards the Rollbhan objectives.

Second the comment about arty micro management and that some very small units seem to be able to create a large amount of delay disproportionate to their size.

A big scenario with lots of units but very enjoyable and a great mix of challenges, time, routes alternatives. I smiled when I saw my King Tigers stop for petrol, very realistic. I had given them maximum fuel orders. This is an area where I need to understand the game mechanics a little better. Just like the real operation you are up against the clock.

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

... and that some very small units seem to be able to create a large amount of delay disproportionate to their size.

For the patch we have removed the 57mm AT platoon units from the US Rifle Battalions and parsed them out to the individual US Rifle company estab. This is similar to how the Germans and UK units are represented and it reduces the number of units in play.

Scenario developers should take note of this if they use the US Infantry Battalion in their current, pre-patch scenarios; they will need to remove the Bn AT Plt from each battalion (not the Regimental AT Coy!) after the Patch comes out. The stock scenarios will already have this modification.

[Pawsy]

I did wonder why there was so many allied AT units. They were acting as road bump[s and causing delay. It may change my marginal defeats into wins Great scenario played it quite a few times. Now getting to launch an attack on the ridge its self. If only I had more fuel.