Playing with the Big Boys

[heinrich55]

MR,
Excellent shots of the monster. Can you imagine the thoughts running through an American tank crewman's head? You are already worried about running into Tigers, Panthers, and Jagdpanthers in your steel coffin of a Sherman, and then you run up against a KV-2. It would be akin to a Roman soldier seeing a freaking enemy battle elephant for the first time.

Heinrich55

[Yoozername]

I doubt it would be much of a problem for the US in 1945. 
 
The KVII only fired HE when the Soviets used them.  The Germans may have developed a AP round for it.  But it would be easily isolated and destroyed by US forces once it was detected.

[Mad Russian]

You think so? Why do you think an American force would fare any better against them than the Germans did? They wouldn't have had to develop an AT shell for it. 152mm HE would do enough damage to any vehicle it hit to no less than disable it.

The Germans isolated several of them. They were easier to isolate than they were to knock out.

We're looking into seeing about the one reported in the Ruhr Pocket. Should be easy to find that monster if it was there.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

Yes, in fact, the more I think about, the more I think so.
 
1.  White Phosphorous.  It would be easy to blind the KVII and the crew, would need to decide if they wanted to go down fighting.
2.  Faster vehciles with 75mm+ rounds.  The tracks on the KVII would be obliterated.  The faster vehciles would not be easily hit by the slow moving turret.
3.  Airpower.  Close Air Support was well established and would pound the KVII into a crater.
4.  Numbers.  How many KVII did the Germans have in 1945?

[Mad Russian]

The Germans used 88mm Flak against them with only limited success. American short 75mm rounds would fail to impress a KV-2. There are several instances of the Germans trying to knock them out easily obtainable by googling. Ask for KV-2 and 6th Panzer Division for a starting point.

All the things you thought of to try were used by the Germans and the KV-2 was still sitting there. Crew inside. Firing at will. Did you look at any of the pictures I've posted in this thread?

The KV-2 was bigger by far than anything the Americans fielded. If all this was so easy then none of the larger German tanks should have posed anything like an issue to the Americans either because the KV-2 is larger than anything the Germans deployed against the Americans except possibly a Sturmtiger.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

I mentioned the plentiful 75mm/76mm guns that would easily take off a KVII's tracks as well as blind it with WP and plentiful HE.  US 90mm and 76mm HVAP would have little problem with these relics. It would be fun to watch M18 Hellcats just circling and blasting away at the KVII as it struggled to move its turret.

http://onwar.com/tanks/ussr/data/kv2m40.htm

The early war 88mm Flak guns fired a rather weak AP round.  Need me to cite that?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

It would be fun to watch M18 Hellcats just circling and blasting away at the KVII as it struggled to move its turret.

The KV-2 wouldn't be moving it's turret unless it was on level ground.

Need me to cite that?

You think you need to?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/galleries/ruscaptured/KV2.htm

Supposedly used to defend Krupp...see website.

Here's a nice drawing:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/th ... t+interior

I don't think the turret armor would hold up to 1945 guns firing good ammo. Is the turret side armor 75mm?

http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogspot ... label/KV-2

More pics. Big deal. It held up to 37mm and short 50mm and HE. It mostly immobilized itself just trying to negotiate a ditch.

[Yoozername]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

It would be fun to watch M18 Hellcats just circling and blasting away at the KVII as it struggled to move its turret.

The KV-2 wouldn't be moving it's turret unless it was on level ground.

Need me to cite that?

You think you need to?

Good Hunting.

MR

I really find this type 'discourse' useless. I don't follow why you are trying to explain that KV-2 had to be on flat terrain. How does that advance your argument or thought process or..what is it for??? To be honest, it's odd. Are you trying to 'wow' me with knowledge that practically any armor buff knows? If anything, you are supporting my argument. and I don't need you to do that.

Why do you need to answer questions with questions? This is the internet and you need to take your time and compose yourself and express what your arguments and thoughts are. Thank you.

[Yoozername]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

They took what appear to be small hits. On other tanks those hits wouldn't look so small.

Good Hunting.

MR

Oh PLEASE!!!

Those hits are small and they look like 37mm or short 50mm!!! Why are you always 'selling' something????

Want to size something up from that picture? Look at the front armor of that turret! Its 75mm. It wouldn't stop decent 75mmL43 AP rounds in 1942.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Why are you always 'selling' something????

Lewis, Mr.Tittles and your "others"...

The management has assured me that you've been warned what will happen if you go into troll-mode in regard to the PzC games.

Wanna try them out?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I really find this type 'discourse' useless. I don't follow why you are trying to explain that KV-2 had to be on flat terrain. How does that advance your argument or thought process or..what is it for???

How does this advance what argument? I don't have an argument. This is a thread about a KV-2 in 1941. And how they were reported to be involved in fighting as late as 1945. That's what I stated. It's your position that the KV-2 would be helpless against the Americans. I don't see where I have to 'prove' anything. You're the one making all the claims.

To be honest, it's odd. Are you trying to 'wow' me with knowledge that practically any armor buff knows? If anything, you are supporting my argument. and I don't need you to do that.

Your argument that the Americans would have little trouble taking out a KV-2. Somewhere will be an account of that happening since we both think there was one involved in the fighting of the Ruhr.

I wasn't aware that everybody on this website or in this forum was an armor buff.

Why do you need to answer questions with questions? This is the internet and you need to take your time and compose yourself and express what your arguments and thoughts are. Thank you.

This is a thread about KV-2's in 1941. I'm fully composed. I even provide pictures of them. This is not only the internet but the Matrix forum for PCO. Which has a scenario with a KV-2 in it. Which we are discussing.

When the time comes to put the KV-2 in the Ruhr we can discuss how well it does there then. The internet allows for all kinds of interactions. Even those that attempt to be disruptive.

You didn't like my picture of the KV-2 with 'what appear to be small hits' and then you go on to tell me that they are more than likely 37mm or 50mm gun rounds. How you can tell a 50mm short gun hit from a 50mm long gun hit makes you one of the top most armor experts in the world.

In Russia, in 1941, even the OH PLEASE, 37mm gun would take out most Russian tanks. The exceptions were the T-34's and KV's. Armor expert that you are you already know that too.

So here are my composed thoughts for you.

In 1941, the KV-2 was proven to be extremely difficult to knock out with normal German tank/antitank weapons. This thread is about a KV-2 in a 1941 PCO scenario. It was hard to knock out in the scenario.

There are pictures of KV-2's included in the thread to show just how difficult a time the Germans had knocking them out. When it comes time to add them to the Western Front we'll see how they do.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Why are you always 'selling' something????

Lewis, Mr.Tittles and your "others"...

The management has assured me that you've been warned what will happen if you go into troll-mode in regard to the PzC games.

Wanna try them out?

This is a left over argument from a Game Squad thread. That's all.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

This is a left over argument from a Game Squad thread. That's all.

We'll leave it at then.[:)]

Thanks for helping with the game, btw.

PoE

[Mad Russian]

Where abouts are you in Tx?

MR

[Yoozername]

Wierd.  Not ground breaking, but wierd just the same.

Sorry, 75mm armor. deal with it. (Does the game NOT have some indication of what armor thickness a vehicle has? hello?)

Mad Russian: Maybe you need to explain what you see in the pictures you post?

[Mobius]

Yeah, the side armor is rounded to 8cm.

It's hard to say what exactly the armor of front turret plate is from the photo. The welds are at an angle to the front and side. And the plate edge is beveled. Comparing the apparent thickness of the plate (edge to center weld) to the width of the barrel you get about 87mm. I don't know the method of Soviet welding. If they fused the plates together or added a filler. Even if you allow for an average 1/4" between plates with filler that makes it 84mm. (Or, 87-90mm LOS.)


That front plate is only about 14% of the exposed turret area.

[Yoozername]

Armor like that would not present a problem to 1945 US forces.  In 1941, faced with the small guns of the Germans, it probably seemed a terror, but by the end of the war, it was a powderkeg waiting to be set off.
 
 

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Armor like that would not present a problem to 1945 US forces.  In 1941, faced with the small guns of the Germans, it probably seemed a terror, but by the end of the war, it was a powderkeg waiting to be set off.

You are right. My estimate by counting pixels of the shell hits show they worked out to about 35-36mm so are 37mm.

[Yoozername]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=untLziJeGNY&feature=related

A good video showing early war Soviet tanks and the suicidal German techniques to fight them.  KV-2 certainly seems to turn slowly in that film. but infantry might be safe from that huge gun since it is mounted so high, and combined with a small gun depression capability, it might not be able to hit infantry within a hundred meters.

I am not that sure that even an early war 88mm AP round couldn't handle the KV series given a side shot.

Check out this video. Closely look at the last 'frames' when the infantry start to stand up (I assume 88 has ceased fire). That looks like a KV-2 turret to me behind all those wrecked trucks. I am not sure what blows up in the beginning of the film. Certainly something goes sky-high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgkQHiju ... detailpage