TOAW supply Bug

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: ogar

Also, I dimly recall from somewhere that you are not supposed to dig in your supply units -- 'makes the trucks slower ?', I dunno, but that may also be happening in Larry's example.

I'm sure this is wrong.

And what drove me to make my experiment, was I too wondered if supply units were doing anything. I found out that what you think is supply radius (new rules) is often overestimating it -- remember the 50% density cost, plus terrain and environment costs. So instead of using the documentation's example and placing a supply unit 2*supply radius from a supply point, I try to keep the unit at about 1.5*radius from the point. So far, that seems to be working.

Under new supply rules, the radius is in MPs, not hexes.

As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units.

Silvanski was mistaken. The boost is visible on the map display.

Essentially, if you get the supply unit placed within the [1.5*] radius, ordinary units that would be at 60% of supply without any supply unit, will now be at about 80% (and those at 40% will now be at 60%).

The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.

BUT where a unit is unsupplied, it is unsupplied even with a supply unit a hex or two away -- those badlands stop 'em cold.

This is correct. Supply Units are not supply sources.

And sadly, Panama, I tried, but I could not get a chain of units working -- they help, but there's no magic relaying of suppply past 1 unit in the chain.

Correct.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.

One supply radius. So if the supply radius were 4 movement points it would reduce the distance by 4 movement points?

[ogar]

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.

One supply radius. So if the supply radius were 4 movement points it would reduce the distance by 4 movement points?

Remember that those MPs are for a virtual motorized supply unit with a density penalty; my approach is that distance shown on the map as in your example is the max of the suppply radius.

And dont forget that everything else -- HQs, RR lines, etc. -- impact the supply number, so you may not 'see it' but the supply unit effect is there.
What I was trying to say above seeing its effect is that there is no easy way to see this -- other than doing what Curtis did, and what I did -- set up without the supply unit, snapshot, then set up supply unit, and snapshot and compare. There's no way I can do in an on-going game.

What I do during a game is like what's in your picture -- use a motorized unit to estimate, than trim my estimate by a guess on density, supply-net conditions, , etc. and use the reduced estimate as the best guess on supply radius.

If you really do want to dig into the effects of supply unit, do what Curtis demonstrated but with a sal from a scenario that you know well. I think it's worth the effort if you really want to dig into this.

[Panama]

In my example there are no units between the supply unit and the last hex of the arrow. The last hex of the arrow is within the four movement point radius given to the Germans. According to what I've read/been told, that last hex should have supply as though it were four movement points from the railhead. That would be a supply level of 40, just like the hex directly to the southwest of the supply unit on the destroyed rail and that should be displayed on the map. Yet it is displayed as having a level of 34. What am I not understanding?

[sPzAbt653]

And here's the same location the turn after a SU was moved there.

I see what you posted in those shots, but I've run the same test and gotten different results. In this shot, this scenario has an effective supply capacity of 67, and the supply radius is 4 (old supply rules). In this example, there is no increase for the supply unit being there.

[sPzAbt653]

um ... maybe it can't raise the supply above the highest level, and since it is already there no difference will be seen because it won't make any difference ?

For this shot I moved the supply unit back, and the circled hex dropped from 50 to 22, visibly.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

In my example there are no units between the supply unit and the last hex of the arrow. The last hex of the arrow is within the four movement point radius given to the Germans. According to what I've read/been told, that last hex should have supply as though it were four movement points from the railhead. That would be a supply level of 40, just like the hex directly to the southwest of the supply unit on the destroyed rail and that should be displayed on the map. Yet it is displayed as having a level of 34. What am I not understanding?

It would be four MPs closer to the rail head, which, as I see it, would put it equivalent to one MP from the rail head. That's probably a value of 34. For a value of 40, it would have to be on the rail head (or adjusted to equivalent to that by the SU).

In fact, it's obvious that the SU is doing it's job in that shot. Without the SU, no locations except the ones actually on the rail line would be at 40 supply.

[Panama]

Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?

[sPzAbt653]

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.

[:D] Accursed bureaucrats.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.

[:D] Accursed bureaucrats.

I personally authorized them to receive 100% of available supply, and the quartermaster assured me that they could deliver 1.5 x that ! Heads will roll !! [:@]

[ColinWright]

Merry Christmas, everybody.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?

The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure.

And if you want to know why, ask Norm.

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units.

Silvanski was mistaken. The boost is visible on the map display.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure.

And if you want to know why, ask Norm.

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o]

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Panama

Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?

The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead.

Thank you for helping me clear up that point.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead.

Exactly. Think of the SU as a concentration of discretionary supply transport (basically, a lot of trucks). Enough to shift the supplies one radius closer to their destination than they would be without the SU.

That's why I favor an enhancement that would make the SU's function proportionate to the fraction of authorized transport it contains. So, for example, if it only had half its authorized trucks, it would only shift half a supply radius, etc. Then you could strafe an SU and expect the enemy's supplies to drop.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o]

While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?