Total research vs actual output?

[Nibelung44]

Yes, this changes completely the research system. From dull it becomes interesting, huzzah [:'(]

[the1sean]

Yeah, it's a simple but effective change. I didnt notice it at first, either [:'(]

[Litjan]

Well, I am happy that everyone is happy. I wasn´t really talking about the new tech-tree and so on, I really like that, too. I was more disappointed about how lifeless and just a chore it is to get research-points. Make sure you build enough stations to get to your cap. Done.
I didn´t think that this would hold so much fun and fascination for everyone else [:'(].

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: Litjan

Well, I am happy that everyone is happy. I wasn´t really talking about the new tech-tree and so on, I really like that, too. I was more disappointed about how lifeless and just a chore it is to get research-points. Make sure you build enough stations to get to your cap. Done.
I didn´t think that this would hold so much fun and fascination for everyone else [:'(].

Well perhaps next time don't assume your opinion is that of everyone else's. And it isn't just "build stations until cap and done" as we've been trying to tell you. The bonuses are above and beyond the research cap, so even if you are capped it is worth establishing bases at as many points as possible.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Litjan,

You can also get research and tech through trading, through exploration, through disassembling discovered ships at shipyards and repairing them in debris fields (ongoing bonus while they are being repaired) and through expionage. With the more meaningful strategic research locationg in the expansion, I think research is much more interesting now and not just about building labs, though that is certainly a big part of it.

Regards,

- Erik

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Litjan,

You can also get research and tech through trading, through exploration, through disassembling discovered ships at shipyards and repairing them in debris fields (ongoing bonus while they are being repaired) and through expionage. With the more meaningful strategic research locationg in the expansion, I think research is much more interesting now and not just about building labs, though that is certainly a big part of it.

Well put, Erik.

[Krob]

TLDR:
Total Empire Research Potential/3 = Base output for each field which is then multiplied by all bonuses in turn.
If TERP/3 > Total Research Capacity, build more stations.
Research Bonus locations can provide a significant amount of research.

=================

I might have missed it, but I only saw a negative comment about placing stations at the bonus sites and nothing directly refuting that.

As an example, my first starbase upgrade has 5 of each research lab giving it a base of 100 in each field. Assume I have 2 of these bases, for a Total Capacity of 200. Now assume that, given the state of my empire, my base Output is limited to 180 in each field. Thankfully I'm in an awesome start location and quickly discover a 42% Weapons, a 36% Energy, and 51% High Tech location. Even though I'm capped at 180, my actual output is now 255, 244, and 271 respectively making those bonus locations incredibly useful, if a little bit risky.

It's also good to point out that the Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) is the sum of the actual output before bonuses or rather, the maximum base output for each field is TERP/3. That is, in the above example, it would be 540 (540/3=180). Based on my calculations, it's also nice to note that multiple bonuses are applied in succession. Add in my Cardia Armaments Installation (+100% to weapons) and you'd get 180*2*1.42=511, which, without the 42% bonus station reduces actual output to 360. I'm not sure how Nibelung44 would consider that 151 points to be "rather useless". In my game, my paltry +17% bonus gives me 145 points (out of 1003 total with that Weapons bonus and my Technocracy bonus).

Lastly, it would appear that the ongoing bonus Erik referred to applies to the TERP.


K

[Litjan]

Ok, thanks everyone for replying and explaining - I also never knew how the bonus applies and how research points are calculated in detail. I guess that proves one of my points, i.e. that the way research points are generated, calculated and applied is not totally clear to most users and in fact could be represented a little more clearly.

Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, that´s great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.

Don´t get me wrong, I love this game. If indeed the way to generate research is as intricate as it seems to be, then we should endevour to make it a little more obvious so it holds more fascination for the average user.

Some suggestions:

UI: Improve the research-points page by clearly showing and labeling research points accumulated by the labs (raw points), the total empire cap, the difference between the two, and the total output after bonuses (and what these boni are).

I would love to be able to see how many research points other empires generate, maybe it could be added to the comparison page? This way you can tell better how you compare.

When stealing research from other races (or they from me), how many "points" do they steal? It should show on the popup.

Just some ideas. I am sure there are many more out there, like having researchlabs on ships in combat or on exploration gain special research-points, research-agreements as diplomatic options, having a spy go into deep cover in an enemy research lab (and draining points from them to you) and so on.

I didn´t mean to alienate anyone with my posts, and should maybe indeed assume less that everyone has the same views as me... [;)]

Jan

[Krob]

ORIGINAL: Litjan
Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, that´s great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.

Some of the ruins will do exactly that. It doesn't give you the number, but it will tell you that you've found valuable research in x tech.
For each ship in a debris field that you're repairing, it will give you a bonus to your TERP. The exact number is not displayed, however.
You can receive bonuses from repaired/acquired ships if you retire them (not scrap). Again, it doesn't tell you how much, just the tech.


K

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: Litjan

Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, that´s great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.

I am pretty sure that the research page lists that you are getting bonuses while repairing (down on the bottom right?), it just doesnt list the amount (but you can usually see this very easily by looking at the research category screens)

ORIGINAL: Litjan
I would love to be able to see how many research points other empires generate, maybe it could be added to the comparison page? This way you can tell better how you compare.

This WOULD be a nice addition to the comparison pages, good suggestion for the wish-list. It would also help testers see where the AI might be faltering.

ORIGINAL: Litjan
When stealing research from other races (or they from me), how many "points" do they steal? It should show on the popup.

Yes, it should. This is a feature that espionage, in general, lacks. That, and missions need to be able to be set to repeat.

ORIGINAL: Litjan
Just some ideas. I am sure there are many more out there, like having researchlabs on ships in combat or on exploration gain special research-points, research-agreements as diplomatic options, having a spy go into deep cover in an enemy research lab (and draining points from them to you) and so on.

You can definitely find awesome technologies or gain progress in scientific fields through exploration and plot development!

[ASHBERY76]

I recall Elliot saying that a research comparison would be included ages back,it is needed.