When I see 10 airbases permanently shut down, about 80 4E bombers flying every day and it's just 8/42 or 9/42, everything it's not right. Just my opinion.
Of course some might say that I'm a really bad player, but maybe it's just too easy explanation...
Attack Bombers Too Effective?
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
Sadly for the JFB, this is as it should be.
They were woefully underprepared and their strategies and tactics did not stand up to fighting a military monster like the USA.
I've had a few chats over the last week and, IMHO, the Allied logistic problem is still under represented in the game. Maybe because we can optimise the men and guns and are not diverted for political reasons. In addition bases are built where we wan't them, we know the capabilities of the japanese so dont build massive bases in southern Australia that never get used.
Puhis mentions 80 4E bombers, wait until there are 500+ based within range of the HI. (there is nothing wrong with 80 4E in the PTO, the numbers are right, how they are used is different to IRL.)
Thinks of ways to get them, maybe night bombing of their bases?
They were woefully underprepared and their strategies and tactics did not stand up to fighting a military monster like the USA.
I've had a few chats over the last week and, IMHO, the Allied logistic problem is still under represented in the game. Maybe because we can optimise the men and guns and are not diverted for political reasons. In addition bases are built where we wan't them, we know the capabilities of the japanese so dont build massive bases in southern Australia that never get used.
Puhis mentions 80 4E bombers, wait until there are 500+ based within range of the HI. (there is nothing wrong with 80 4E in the PTO, the numbers are right, how they are used is different to IRL.)
Thinks of ways to get them, maybe night bombing of their bases?
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
On average, how many 4E bombers did fly daily in 1942? I'll bet it's nowhere near 80...
Yeah right, when just 8-12 night flying Hurricanes or P-40s can shot down 10-20 % of japanese bombers (and I have data to prove that). IMO another flaw, non-night fighters are way too effective during nights.
Flying fortresses are very tough and hard to shot down, that's OK for me. But I think that a) 4E bombers can fly too often, and b) airfield bombing is too effective.
I'm only saying these because I hope this great game will be even better some day. [:)]
Thinks of ways to get them, maybe night bombing of their bases?
Yeah right, when just 8-12 night flying Hurricanes or P-40s can shot down 10-20 % of japanese bombers (and I have data to prove that). IMO another flaw, non-night fighters are way too effective during nights.
Flying fortresses are very tough and hard to shot down, that's OK for me. But I think that a) 4E bombers can fly too often, and b) airfield bombing is too effective.
I'm only saying these because I hope this great game will be even better some day. [:)]
-
khyberbill
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: new milford, ct
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
I have to agree, IMO biggest flaw in this game. In my other PBEM game (ended 10/42) allies could keep all my important airbases shut down: all Burma airbases, and also Port Moresby, Milne Bay, Lunga, Tulagi, Munda and Shortlands.
On average there was 80 4E bombers flying every day. Some days there was just 30, but next day there was 150... And about 100-200 2E bombers over Burma every day
I dont know where your foe got all his 4E bombers to fly that many a day in 42. I hope to be able to so by mid to late 43. I havent shut down an airfield yet in Burma and have had to resort to night bombing. 15 B24's a month doesnt keep up with ops losses.
"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.
-
PresterJohn001
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:45 pm
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: Misconduct
ORIGINAL: PresterJohn
50 Runway hits repeatably from a dozen attack bombers. Really is that right? Allies already have over rated ability to shut down airfields.
I understand that the role of the Japanese player is to take it and not complain but seriously???
An airfield that has no CAP or AAA, what are you expecting them to down a few dozen fighters with rocks?
Stop playing the AI if its that easy.
Don't play the AI, much prefer getting my butt whipped by a real opponent, occasionally dealing out a bit of damage myself. Anytime you fancy a game .....
memento mori
-
PresterJohn001
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:45 pm
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
These situations are always complex, no the airfield didn't have AA or CAP, but not flying CAP reduces losses overall. Now that doesn't sound right for starters.
Did the allies shut down continually 6+ major airbase complexes (not airfields) across an entire region for weeks at a time in early 1943?
Is the attack bomber damage right, but exacerbated by the 4e bomber issue?
memento mori
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: Puhis
On average there was 80 4E bombers flying every day. Some days there was just 30, but next day there was 150... And about 100-200 2E bombers over Burma every day...
I don't buy this, unless it's late in the game (late 43 at the earliest?), or if you've done a /very/ bad job shooting them down.
I don't think it's much of an opsec issue with Presterjohn to give a ballpark figure for how many heavies I have to play with in April 43.
7 squadrons of USAAF heavies in SOPAC ( = about 80 heavy bombers, of which 50-75% can fly on any given day normally).
4 squadrons of USAAF heavies in CBI ( = about 50 heavy bombers, of which 50-75% can fly on any given day normally)
1 squadron of RAF heavies in CBI ( = another 8?)
2 squadrons of USAAF heavies in CENTPAC ( = about 20 bombers)
A handful more in training squadrons and the like but not many, a dozen maybe.
100-200 heavies over Burma every day? I wish! I think the biggest single raid I've ever managed in AE was about 60 heavies.
(Admittedly I dont see why you would need a 100 bomber raid, those 60 heavies did a hell of a number on Rabaul IIRC [:'(])
Given the terrible service rating to have 100 heavy bombers fly every single day you'd need about 150-200 heavy bombers in squadrons as their up time is terrible. I don't have that number of bombers on the entire map, let alone in Burma.
I think Presterjohn did a pretty good job shooting them down with the odd massed CAP trap, on several occasions he bagged a dozen or so heavies in one day when springing a little surprise and in 1942 those losses are totally unsustainable. For months I was reduced to night bombing in Burma as a result.
As for attack bombers, I got about 30 of those on the entire map but I have less than normal as I didnt upgrade the B25 factory while attack bombers were bugged. They do seem pretty good to me, possibly too good. 12 bombers score 50 hits on average and their loss rate versus AA is pretty negligible. I'm not sure how much AA Presterjohn has deployed where I'm using them though. Unlike the heavies medium bombers really can fly every day as well (hence why the Wellington is one of my fave bombers in the game, same bombload as a B17 except unlike a B17 they actually can fly every day).
Medium bombers are quite vulnerable to CAP tho.
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: Zemke_4
It is sucks to be Japan after the first six months. I am playing two PBEM games, one as Japan and one as Allies. As Japan, the game is into late 43, and my bases are pretty much targets. 90% of the time I just pack it in, move all the planes I can and wait till he moves on to other bases. I have lots of ToJos, but they don't stop the 4E bombers for crap, no fighter I have made has been able to with enough success to make him think twice. Early in the war I could, but not now. I just finished reading "The Pacific War: The Strategy and Ploitics, and Players that Won the War", by William B. Hopkins and it pretty much confirms my first sentence in this post.
What's the experience level of your Tojo pilots? Low experience pilots are not going to be very effective.
Pilot training is crucial in AE. Fail to train pilots and you will get hammered by well trained units.
Bill
WIS Development Team
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: Puhis
On average, how many 4E bombers did fly daily in 1942? I'll bet it's nowhere near 80...
remove a zero. [;)]
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
I guess the question should be, how much needs to be modified for the reasons of playability? If this game has done anything, it has caused me to spend a lot of time reading about the era. Could the US put 80 4E bombers over a target in 43? Yes they had the planes to do it. But we don't have the constraints the real life commanders had. Many B17's and B-24's were used as patrol planes because they could handle being intercepted better than the PBY. There were the fears back at PH that kept too many planes there for protection.
Read books that looked at operations from a 3rd party point of view, the Army Air Forces in World War II by W.F. Craven and J.L. Cate. It is a multi volume set written after the war. You should also read The History of the US Naval Operations by Adm Morison. Read the operations in 43 concerning New Guinea and the Solomons. In both series you will see what happens when the US wanted to shut an airfield down and how they did it. Sure hitting the airfield was pretty easy if the weather cooperated but the real damage was the service units and the air craft itself. In 43 AirSol's could launch 200 plane raids of fighters, DB, TB and bombers, not every day but then again they wouldn't need to.
Back to my question, where do we draw the line in playability and history?
Read books that looked at operations from a 3rd party point of view, the Army Air Forces in World War II by W.F. Craven and J.L. Cate. It is a multi volume set written after the war. You should also read The History of the US Naval Operations by Adm Morison. Read the operations in 43 concerning New Guinea and the Solomons. In both series you will see what happens when the US wanted to shut an airfield down and how they did it. Sure hitting the airfield was pretty easy if the weather cooperated but the real damage was the service units and the air craft itself. In 43 AirSol's could launch 200 plane raids of fighters, DB, TB and bombers, not every day but then again they wouldn't need to.
Back to my question, where do we draw the line in playability and history?
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: EUBanana
ORIGINAL: Puhis
On average there was 80 4E bombers flying every day. Some days there was just 30, but next day there was 150... And about 100-200 2E bombers over Burma every day...
I don't buy this, unless it's late in the game (late 43 at the earliest?), or if you've done a /very/ bad job shooting them down.
100-200 heavies over Burma every day? I wish! I think the biggest single raid I've ever managed in AE was about 60 heavies.
I just checked. During the last 14 turns of that game (and it was 9/42), althogether 1100 4E bombers destroyed my Salomon airbases. That's about 78,5 bombers per day. Then we desided to quit, not because of the 4Es but because I've already lost all my CVs and about 50 % of battleships and heavy cruisers.
It's hard to shot down anything when your airfields are destroyed and 90 % of fighters damaged. I think biggest strikes had about 60 bombers, there was nothing Zeros or Oscars could do...
There was not heavies over Burma, just 2E bombers, mostly british. Strato sweeps and 150 2E bombers are enough to destroy one airbase/day.
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: oldman45
I guess the question should be, how much needs to be modified for the reasons of playability? If this game has done anything, it has caused me to spend a lot of time reading about the era. Could the US put 80 4E bombers over a target in 43? Yes they had the planes to do it.
Well, I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that I could not put 80 heavy bombers over a target in April 1943 without stripping all other theatres bare, and even then, only for a brief period.
If other players can manage that, all power to them, but I suspect that is measure of skill, careful husbandry, or lack of skill in opposing them on the part of their opponents.
RE: Attack Bombers Too Effective?
ORIGINAL: Puhis
I just checked. During the last 14 turns of that game (and it was 9/42), althogether 1100 4E bombers destroyed my Salomon airbases. That's about 78,5 bombers per day. Then we desided to quit, not because of the 4Es but because I've already lost all my CVs and about 50 % of battleships and heavy cruisers.
Sounds like you just had your ass kicked.
Not my experience at all. In my game the RAF was almost completely destroyed, and while I've recovered in the air quite nicely I think I still can't lay a finger on the IJN.
The Brits get hardly any bomber reinforcements. In fact in 1942 the USAAF doesn't either. You must have failed to attritt them even marginally to suffer that.