Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41

[Davekhps]

To summarize: it's not a pure checkerboard defense, nor hedgehog, but a hybrid. My advance in 1941 was rather conservative, unable to match historical gains (especially in AGS), but that left me in a less vulnerable position once the mud turns began. I found the key in those last viable 1941 turns (16 and 17) was to start planning for the mud and winter-- don't get too greedy; sketch out your defensive lines using cities, forests, swamps and rivers; and start refitting your mobile forces as winter fire brigades.

Once winter hit, I didn't use it to attack (no Operation Typhoon for me), I just used those turns to dress my frontlines and better fortify my second and third lines. Once the Soviet blizzard attacks hit, that was when the fun began, and by the second round of winter turns arrived, I was able to restore some of the ground I had lost during the blizzard before the Spring 1942 mud hit.

The Fortified Regions acted as entrenching forces in almost all cases (fortress cities like Novogorod and rear-area garrison supplements aside). When the Soviets advanced next to the FAs, I disbanded them rather than sacrifice them. Still, I lost a handful, but nothing I couldn't afford to sacrifice.

Keeping the panzers back helps tremendously. They refit better and faster, and their MP allows them to react to breakthroughs.

The frontline infantry was almost uniformly set to static. This bought me a tremendous amount of Admin Points, creating a reserve close enough to the 500 point max, and for the rest of my GC I would never go below 300 AP in my reserve. (Personally, I think this is a bit unbalanced, as for the Axis player using the static tactic for winter 1941 basically invalidates any game restrictions for AP the rest of the game-- it's simply no longer a limiting factor, there just isn't enough for an Axis player to do in later turns to burn through that huge a reserve of APs).

My air units were placed wholesale in the National Reserve during the first mud turns in 1941, me keeping only a few fighter squadrons and Junkers for resupply. I didn't miss air support during the winter-- unsure of how realistic this is gamewise-- but my air force in 1942 was far superior (and my successes in that year led to a lot less Soviet airpower in 1943-- although, again, I too noticed some pretty severe Axis air casualties in the late war, I hope more testing in 1943/44 is done to see if Soviet air is overpowered in the late war).

Anyway... I won't say it was a perfect defense against the AI, and it'd be a bad idea against a human player. BUT, the key is that it worked, my lines bent but did not break-- no T-34s driving into Warsaw!-- and with patience I ultimately achieved an instant decisive victory for the Axis in summer 1944.

So Axis players, keep warm, and happy hunting!

[Singleton Mosby]

That was very interesting to see. At turn 22 my situation was about the same as yours. I however did not employ a checkerboard defence and used the panzergroups as direct reserve for the frontline unit. It is now turn 32 and I am pushed back slowly but not pushed hard. I might lose Smolensk however in a turn or two. At which turn will the blizzard be over?

[Davekhps]

ORIGINAL: Singleton Mosby

At which turn will the blizzard be over?

I forget off the top of my head, but using the non-random weather table, the date's listed in the manual-- I believe you'll get blizzard conditions into February, and March will be your second round of winter.

Note that my first time through, I didn't appreciate this-- that second round of winter appears to not carry any severe penalties for the Axis, i.e. it's just like that first round of winter in 1941. I didn't take full advantage of that, preferring to largely hunker down during that second round of winter (that is, until it kept dragging along and I realized, "Hey, I could be attacking here with some success, let me try it!")

Which means that an alert Axis player who has maintained adequate reserves can do much during that second round of winter turns to restore their frontline lost during the blizzard turns. You won't have time (or likely the strength) to launch any sort of grand offensives, but you'll have enough restored strength to set yourself up for a better position going into the mud turns, and ultimately the Spring 1942 campaign season.

BTW, for those Axis players shocked/depressed by the severity of the 1941-1942 blizzard, don't fret-- the later blizzard turns don't appear to be anywhere near as bad; in fact, unlike the 1941-1942 blizzard, you can actually attack and succeed, at least on a limited basis, during those 1942, 43 and 44 turns.

[karonagames]

Which means that an alert Axis player who has maintained adequate reserves can do much during that second round of winter turns to restore their frontline lost during the blizzard turns. You won't have time (or likely the strength) to launch any sort of grand offensives, but you'll have enough restored strength to set yourself up for a better position going into the mud turns, and ultimately the Spring 1942 campaign season.

This is a very important point. In my Field Marshal Noob AAR I took back on average 3 hexes along the central front, and In the south I trapped about 30 units against the Sea of Azov, and pocketed about 300k.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Interesting. Dunno how this would play out in PBEM context. I'd be throwing cav at all those gaps.

It wouldn't. This is clearly a "bad habit" defense for the AI. It'd slow down the cav at best-- ideally, I think the only thing going for me is keeping the panzers deep enough to counter infiltrations.

Yea but you really shouldn't use your panzers during winter. here are the winter rules. If you try to throw your panzers in to stop a breach you're going to lose precious tanks. Pull the line back if it starts to crumble. giving up some space is easy enough to retake in the summer. It can also help you with pockets even vs PBEM.

Code: Select all

 22.3.1.	 COMBAT VALUE MODIFICATIONS
 Non-Finnish, non-mountain and non-ski Axis attacking units have their modified combat value
 (CV) divided by 3 and possibly more if they fail certain leader rating checks (divided by 4 if
 admin check fails, and divided by 4 if Infantry or Mech Combat rating check fails). Non-Finnish,
 non-mountain and non-ski Axis defending units CV are divided by 2 and possibly by more if
 they fail leader infantry or Mech combat or admin checks (Once again, divided by 4 for each
 failed check). Because of these modifiers and to better reflect the unit’s current status, Axis
 units will have their normal printed CV divided by three, and their defense CV divided by two,
 with values rounded down. The leader checks that can reduce CV’s further will still occur, but
 the printed CV values only account for the definite reduction in CV. To better reflect their impact,
 the displayed CV values for Finns, Soviets, and Axis mountain and ski units are doubled during
 first winter blizzard turns to account for the first winter surprise effects on other units. This is a
 display item only, as the actual CV values themselves don’t change in combat.
 

[karonagames]

Yea but you really shouldn't use your panzers during winter. here are the winter rules. If you try to throw your panzers in to stop a breach you're going to lose precious tanks.

Very good point. You can always regain the ground - you can never get the tanks back.

[Flaviusx]

I don't know. Given that many of those panzers are obsolete models anyways...

[Wikingus]

What would be the merits of using fortified regions and static units in the winter of 1941? I haven't used either yet. Fortified regions seem to me a bit useless, whereas I haven't really played around with static units yet.

[Sabre21]

I would never go static as the Germans at this point in the game. You lose your maneuverability and those units will just get surrounded and killed. Forts on the other hand I would and do use. The Germans don't have the luxury of a lot of extra units so the forts provide that although at a cost of 5 ap per.

One of the older testers..Rick, used forts very heavily and had pretty much 3 solid rows of them in the north and center. He started building his line in September. It took all i had to break the center and northern defenses. By February 42 I had breached the lines in the north and was starting to make decent headway and another turn or two the center would have been punched, but not decisively. He didn't have many forts down south where most of his armor was and that theatre was in chaos and near total rout. I nearly bagged an entire panzer army had he not slipped the noose. I was 50 miles from Rumania when we quit in Feb 42.

When I play Germans, I begin the winter defense as of turn 1 by destroying as many Soviet units as I can and keep that up until mud hits. I push hard taking as many manpower centers and do my best to keep my opponent off balance. I firmly believe a good defense is a strong offense. While I am relentless all the way until the weather changes, I do use my axis allies to begin digging in at key locations and rotate some of my divisions in such a manner as to create a defensive line while getting replenished. Forts begin popping in early so as not to be a massive drain on manpower all at once. I decide where my main line of resistance will be and then plan on going one hundred miles beyond that as a buffer. That's what you can expect a good Soviet player to take back.  

[Pawsy]

I would be through those gaps, encircle for a turn and your units would surrender without much of a fight. Dont confuse what you can get away with the AI and human players.

[Wikingus]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would never go static as the Germans at this point in the game. You lose your maneuverability and those units will just get surrounded and killed. Forts on the other hand I would and do use. The Germans don't have the luxury of a lot of extra units so the forts provide that although at a cost of 5 ap per.

One of the older testers..Rick, used forts very heavily and had pretty much 3 solid rows of them in the north and center. He started building his line in September. It took all i had to break the center and northern defenses. By February 42 I had breached the lines in the north and was starting to make decent headway and another turn or two the center would have been punched, but not decisively. He didn't have many forts down south where most of his armor was and that theatre was in chaos and near total rout. I nearly bagged an entire panzer army had he not slipped the noose. I was 50 miles from Rumania when we quit in Feb 42.

When I play Germans, I begin the winter defense as of turn 1 by destroying as many Soviet units as I can and keep that up until mud hits. I push hard taking as many manpower centers and do my best to keep my opponent off balance. I firmly believe a good defense is a strong offense. While I am relentless all the way until the weather changes, I do use my axis allies to begin digging in at key locations and rotate some of my divisions in such a manner as to create a defensive line while getting replenished. Forts begin popping in early so as not to be a massive drain on manpower all at once. I decide where my main line of resistance will be and then plan on going one hundred miles beyond that as a buffer. That's what you can expect a good Soviet player to take back.  

Interesting, thanks! It's now mid-July 1941 in my game, so you'd suggest I start putting up some fortifications already, so they can gradually fill up? Do they gain a significant advantage if I put them in cities, or is a line of them close together preferable to an individual, but beefed up Festung?

Also, regarding static units - what would be their advantage later in game? Once the tide turns and I'm constantly defending?

[Davekhps]

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

I would be through those gaps, encircle for a turn and your units would surrender without much of a fight. Dont confuse what you can get away with the AI and human players.

... and I would have slowed your advance, closed my gaps from your flanks, and used my panzers to counter-pocket your advance, the same way I did when the Soviet AI tried the same thing.

Don't underestimate the AI in that winter turn. It's *very* effective, better than at any other point in the game. But it's still fighting in winter, even with Soviet bonuses.

[Davekhps]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would never go static as the Germans at this point in the game. You lose your maneuverability and those units will just get surrounded and killed. Forts on the other hand I would and do use. The Germans don't have the luxury of a lot of extra units so the forts provide that although at a cost of 5 ap per.   

Again, this is the AI. It bulls forward. It does swamp around the static units, but on my turn those static units are already activated, I can maneuver them out of the way, and my mobile units reopen to resupply.

I didn't lose a single German unit (other than FAs) to a pocket during that winter (would only lose three infantry divisions and one armor regiment my whole game, and all but one of those units was due to simple negligence on my part).

Also, while I made extensive use of forts, with the exception of those placed within frontline cities, they were always disbanded once Soviet units arrived next to them. FAs (FRs/FZs, what-have-you) simply don't have enough combat power to make a lick of difference. They *are* useful, however, for establishing those fallback lines, which when my previously-static infantry were bumped into life / forced to retreat by Soviet attacks, those rear forts offered up welcome strongpoints to continue the defense.

[Davekhps]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I don't know. Given that many of those panzers are obsolete models anyways...

This. I never noticed a panzer shortage in 1942 on account of using the panzers in winter 1941, all I did was lose obsolete panzers. Please note that I didn't use them every turn, and I kept most of them far back-- I only used them to counterattack or cut off, NEVER to just plug holes in my line (that's what infantry is for).

BTW, forgot to add-- for 1942, I ruthlessly reduced all but a select few infantry corps to 70% TOE, and again kept my quiet lines in static. That helped recover all my units that suffered during the winter.

[ComradeP]

Do they gain a significant advantage if I put them in cities, or is a line of them close together preferable to an individual, but beefed up Festung?

That advantage you gain from placing them in cities is that the city is probably garrissoned by a security unit which can't improve forts past level 1, whilst a fortified zone can improve it to the terrain type's limit. I'd advise against forming a large number of German fortified zones, as it sucks their manpower pool dry rather quickly. Keep in mind that the Germans get about 20k manpower each turn in 1941-1942, and they lose around 15k manpower to attrition alone (although most of those losses are disabled and not killed).

Also, regarding static units - what would be their advantage later in game? Once the tide turns and I'm constantly defending?

Static units offer 2 advantages: vehicles get returned to the pool and they get a 10% bonus to fort construction. The main penalty is that the units are sitting ducks and if you reactivate them, they'll be motorized and thus can't move through enemy terrain so when they're pocketed, you're in trouble.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Wikingus

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would never go static as the Germans at this point in the game. You lose your maneuverability and those units will just get surrounded and killed. Forts on the other hand I would and do use. The Germans don't have the luxury of a lot of extra units so the forts provide that although at a cost of 5 ap per.

One of the older testers..Rick, used forts very heavily and had pretty much 3 solid rows of them in the north and center. He started building his line in September. It took all i had to break the center and northern defenses. By February 42 I had breached the lines in the north and was starting to make decent headway and another turn or two the center would have been punched, but not decisively. He didn't have many forts down south where most of his armor was and that theatre was in chaos and near total rout. I nearly bagged an entire panzer army had he not slipped the noose. I was 50 miles from Rumania when we quit in Feb 42.

When I play Germans, I begin the winter defense as of turn 1 by destroying as many Soviet units as I can and keep that up until mud hits. I push hard taking as many manpower centers and do my best to keep my opponent off balance. I firmly believe a good defense is a strong offense. While I am relentless all the way until the weather changes, I do use my axis allies to begin digging in at key locations and rotate some of my divisions in such a manner as to create a defensive line while getting replenished. Forts begin popping in early so as not to be a massive drain on manpower all at once. I decide where my main line of resistance will be and then plan on going one hundred miles beyond that as a buffer. That's what you can expect a good Soviet player to take back.  

Interesting, thanks! It's now mid-July 1941 in my game, so you'd suggest I start putting up some fortifications already, so they can gradually fill up? Do they gain a significant advantage if I put them in cities, or is a line of them close together preferable to an individual, but beefed up Festung?

Also, regarding static units - what would be their advantage later in game? Once the tide turns and I'm constantly defending?

As Pieter indicates the downside to a lot of forts is that it uses up a lot of precious manpower. The upside though is it is another unit that can be digging in while your combat formations maintain the frontline. If you manage them properly and don't get too crazy with them as I've seen some folks do, manpower usage won't be a problem. You can also set them at 50% TOE, although doing so will probably slow their entrenching ability down.

Thru June, July, and August my ap's as the German are going towards balancing out and reorganization. I have my own personal preferences on how I like my force structure to be at and it takes 9 or 10 turns to get them that way. By September I build a couple forts here and there, primarily in cities and where I think I will have my main defensive line at. Where I can use minor allies for digging in i do but the center is void of them due to axis ally limitations so that's typically where my forts end up.

If you prefer not to use forts, which some people don't like, you can take out a few divisions and break them into regiments and get those digging in. I tend to use both methods.

As for static units in later war, I really don't see myself useing them much. I haven't really got into the latter era of testing and most of the guys that have took on the Soviets.

[petgod]

Am i understanding it right, if i use minor axis or other units to dig in then other units can occupy those areas and get the bonus? Is there a limit to this?

[ComradeP]

A fort level's a fort level and an Axis unit is an Axis unit, so aside from the Romanians and Hungarians not being stackable, there should be no problems.

What I'm not sure of is whether a unit will maintain a fort up to the maximum for the terrain type or can only maintain it to what it can build. As in: I don't know if a fort will degrade if a security unit is holding a level 5 fort, as it can only build level 1 forts.

[petgod]

Thank you