Operation Red Beard_Redmarkus(Ax) vs. Comsolut(Sv)

[CarnageINC]

Remember it goes both ways, and you might have a respite during the winter months.  Looking at the random chart you have a better chance during the winter to get mud or snow then you have of getting mud during summer.  So this may help you in the long run.

[Redmarkus5]

Thank goodness for climate change then

[karonagames]

You will be very grateful for 3 less blizzard turns; and 3 extra snow turns will more than make up for one mud turn in the summer.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Cheers.

I confirmed that random weather is on. Damn! I should have checked that out before I started.

We've agreed to keep playing, but my view is that we all know the Germans lost WW2. With huge random summer mud storms, they would have just lost it faster. I really don't understand why such a feature was allowed into the game design. Let the modders change summer to Autumn, if they wish...

It is there to represent the changing weather that can occur quite often. I kind of wish the weather zones were smaller but they are what they are. So if you get a mud turn in August in one zone, you might get it the next turn or two in an adjacent zone..or maybe not. You will only get one off weather per zone per season so if you get mud in the south in august, the next time you will see it there is in the mud season. Of course in the mud season you might get a clear or snow turn and in blizzard you can get a snow turn.

[hgilmer3]

Sad to see this won't be an AAR.  Comsolut is a worthy adversary and very crafty.  I'm just finishing up a Typhoon with him, me as the Soviets and if not for the blizzard finally getting there, he would have run me completely off the map.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Cheers.

I confirmed that random weather is on. Damn! I should have checked that out before I started.

We've agreed to keep playing, but my view is that we all know the Germans lost WW2. With huge random summer mud storms, they would have just lost it faster. I really don't understand why such a feature was allowed into the game design. Let the modders change summer to Autumn, if they wish...

It is there to represent the changing weather that can occur quite often. I kind of wish the weather zones were smaller but they are what they are. So if you get a mud turn in August in one zone, you might get it the next turn or two in an adjacent zone..or maybe not. You will only get one off weather per zone per season so if you get mud in the south in august, the next time you will see it there is in the mud season. Of course in the mud season you might get a clear or snow turn and in blizzard you can get a snow turn.

I do understand the logic behind the technical implementation of the feature. My question has to do with whether or not it is realistic. Between 1941 and 1945 was there a single summer in Russia where the armies faced a major mud event across the entire length of the front? I certainly don't recall reading about this anywhere over the years.

If such events didn't happen/don't happen in reality, why include them in the game? Neither side can plan properly if climate change is kicking in 50 years earlier than expected. Major design flaw, in my humble opinion.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

Sad to see this won't be an AAR.  Comsolut is a worthy adversary and very crafty.  I'm just finishing up a Typhoon with him, me as the Soviets and if not for the blizzard finally getting there, he would have run me completely off the map.

Thanks for the heads up. I have to respect his preferences though...

[ComradeP]

Between 1941 and 1945 was there a single summer in Russia where the armies faced a major mud event across the entire length of the front? I certainly don't recall reading about this anywhere over the years.

That depends on what you would consider "summer". The beginning of summer can still be muddy in Russia, and local heavy rains can create muddy situations even on theoretically fairly warm days (like the Germans experienced during the Smolensk campaign in July 1941).

[jjdenver]

I read about this years ago. I am not going to take the time to look it up - but yes, Russia does experience summer rains, and Soviet roads for the most part are dirt. I think that summer 41 was remarkably dry but even in 1941 rain affected the summer campaign.

If you don't use random weather the weather is EXACTLY the same each month of each year. It's not "historical" in that it doesn't mirror the actual weather in that zone for that week of that month of that year. Instead every year, every month, in that zone is the same as the previous year and the following year. Blizzard always hits on the exact same week in the exact same zone in 1941, in 1942, in 1943, and in 1944. That to me seems unrealistic - perfectly predictable weather.

[krupp_88mm]

I read about this years ago. I am not going to take the time to look it up - but yes, Russia does experience summer rains, and Soviet roads for the most part are dirt. I think that summer 41 was remarkably dry but even in 1941 rain affected the summer campaign.

If you don't use random weather the weather is EXACTLY the same each month of each year. It's not "historical" in that it doesn't mirror the actual weather in that zone for that week of that month of that year. Instead every year, every month, in that zone is the same as the previous year and the following year. Blizzard always hits on the exact same week in the exact same zone in 1941, in 1942, in 1943, and in 1944. That to me seems unrealistic - perfectly predictable weather.

indeed , if the germans knew mud would strike im sure their plans would have changed, same with the blizzard, weather is something you cant predict in 1941, and you'll just have to either play it safe at all times or play it aggressive and accept that the wather can win and loose wars and plan accordingly

[Redmarkus5]

My point was "mud all across the front". I am aware of the localised problems experienced in July '41 in some operational sectors, but the way the game models this it becomes a strategic problem. Yes, doubts about the weather are 'historical', but this is a major a-historical weather event affecting the full breadth of the Soviet Union for a week. Surely I am not the only player who has complained about this?

[Klydon]

I don't know that they will implement a "solution", but the correct solution is to add more weather zones in Russia. (I think Fire in the East has 3 main weather zones in most of Russia where the game is set at and more in other theaters like the Artic, etc). AGS was absolutely affected by the weather in July, but right now the game can't do that without screwing up the entire front. Perhaps something to add in down the road. 

[Redmarkus5]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. A matrix of weather zones similar to those in WiTP would solve the problem.

[Joel Billings]

There are already 4 weather zones in the game. Mud in one does not mean mud in all of them. There were several times in the summer of 1941 where significant rains impacted operations for several days. Probably not for an entire week, but if you add them all up we felt that 1 mud turn per weather zone would have the correct impact. This does slow up the Germans, however as stated, random weather will mean less blizzard turns in some areas, so it all evens out.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi Joel.

This ignores the effect of the mud turn, IMO. First there's the mud turn itself, then you have a turn where you try to recover stranded units (some of which may be annihilated) and it's only in the third turn that things return to 'normal'. Except you may be a panzer division down, as I am now - trapped by the mud and then too weak and far away to be rescued on the next clear turn.

A few less blizzard turns come winter is not a great consolation if you have lost a key part of your offensive power. It would be better to model the weather more effectively, I think. I don't recall the Germans suffering effects like this due to mud in summer 1941 or any other summer...

[2ndACR]

Random weather on you can expect to get hit with mud almost across the board on turn 3 or turn 4. I see it mostly on turn 4. I now plan accordingly.

[IdahoNYer]

We're using variable weather in our PBEM and yes, we've had some mud hit in the summer of '41. On turn 3 most of the 18th Army and 9th Army was stalled in mud. Later, the 1st PzGrp was stuck in the mud as it hit a different weather area. As the Germans in our game, it definately hurt the offensive, but to me its pretty realistic to get stalled in the mud of summer rains. And I'm hoping to get some less blizzards !

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

We're using variable weather in our PBEM and yes, we've had some mud hit in the summer of '41. On turn 3 most of the 18th Army and 9th Army was stalled in mud. Later, the 1st PzGrp was stuck in the mud as it hit a different weather area. As the Germans in our game, it definately hurt the offensive, but to me its pretty realistic to get stalled in the mud of summer rains. And I'm hoping to get some less blizzards !

OK, do you mean that the mud was only in one or two sectors? The mud I experienced covered the whole front, from Leningrad to Rostov...

[Joel Billings]

Getting mud in all 3 Soviet zones on one turn in the summer should be incredibly rare. In late June it would be 3/10x1/10x1/10 or 3 in 1000, while in July and August it would be 1 in 1000.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi Joel.

Not all Zones, but the whole width of the Russian landmass is what I was trying to say. As shown below.

I just don't see this as historically feasible. A 'zone' of mud from Vitebsk to Smolensk, say, would be acceptable, but the situation in this image doesn't look right to me at all.

Now, before anyone says "AG South was not completely affected", please note that this was Turn 2, so the unaffected units were still frozen...