Cap.t Pixel: THIS is what you were looking for: (and all of you reading this)
http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/5 ... rtank1.htm
WORST overall tank
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Capt. Pixel
- Posts: 1178
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Tucson, AZ
Boy! that is one ugly momma. Looks like something that should have been US Civil War period.Originally posted by Svennemir
Cap.t Pixel: THIS is what you were looking for: (and all of you reading this)
http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/5 ... rtank1.htm
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
- Stonewall Jackson
The Bob Semple
OK everyone,
This Tank just has to take the first prize. There is no contest, this is absolutely the worst!!!
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newz ... aland.html
This Tank just has to take the first prize. There is no contest, this is absolutely the worst!!!
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newz ... aland.html
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
For God and Parliament.
For God and Parliament.
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Capt. Pixel
- Posts: 1178
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: The Bob Semple
If you haven't already taken the time to look at the "Bob Semple", take the time!Originally posted by Hussar
OK everyone,
This Tank just has to take the first prize. There is no contest, this is absolutely the worst!!!
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newz ... aland.html
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
- Stonewall Jackson
Garbage-pickers
Its quite halarious when garbage-pickers comment on engineering marvels, alas it is my duty to educate their dumb asses.
T-35
Battle mass: 50t
Crew: 11
Armament:
76.2mm KT-28, 2x45mm-1932, 6x7.62mm DTMG
Respective ammunition:
96/220/10080
Armour:
30mm welded plates
Powerplant:
M-17T, V12 carburator 500hp engine
Speed:
30kmh
BTD:
120km
It is important to note that the prototype for this tank was made in 1931 NOTE YEAR 1931<--- as a heavy-cruiser tank. The typical cruiser tank was developed at that time in most countries practicing arms developement (France, British Empire,
The British Empire has a tank quite similar in design A1E1 Independant, its a 4 turret (45mm/4MG) 31.5t tank with an 8 man crew with armour 13-28mm. OBVIOUSLY MUCH INFERIOR
In 1931 Germany isn't even allowed tanks, however they make a few resembling ww1 tanks with much of the same characteristics "Reinmetall".
Italy has a similar tank at the time the Fiat 2000 a 40t 10 man crew 15-20mm armoured tank with a 65mm cannon and seven 6.5mm MG's however there's a problem with this powerhouse!.. an old man can outWALK this tank in a walking competition, since it only reaches the spead of 6km/h!
France has a similar to T-35 tank which was used to battle germany for a few days... the 70t FCM 2C with a 12man crew 13-45mm armour plates 75mmgun and 5 8mm GcMG, the problem again is the powerplant a 180hp GIIIa later 250hp Maibach engine giving blazing speeds of 12km/h TRULLY A WEAPON OF BLITZ CREIG! if it could only keep up with the infantry.
You want armour? here you go:
Churchil Mk IV (A22) an impressive piece of junk metal made in 1939!!! 39.5t 5 man crew turtle with the speed of 12.8km/h offroad! armour? 12-102mm! WOW! but a 2lbs / 3 inch gun make my grandma more threatening.
Let's sum it all up.
The T-35 a tank in its time for its time... a masterpiece. With a 76mm main gun of 16.5 calibers capable starting velocity of 530m/s (note: 1931!!!) with the 45mm guns 46 caliber! anti tank guns capable of knocking out 45mm of armour!!! With observation towers implemented by other nations only in 1934-1942. Equiped with a radiostation for 15km com radius on movement and 30km stationary with 7 channel instant communication. Exerting a ground pressure of .78kg/cm^2 (note PzKpfw IV Ausf. D has .95kg/cm^2 hence less off road capability for a medium tank!!!)
On the chassis of the T-35 the SAU-SU-14-1 with a 203mm gun was later made.
Obviously by the begining of the German-Soviet war the tank was mediocre, but by no means bad! Since even the PzKpfw III Ausf. E is lighter armoured with only a 37,mm gun and similar speeds!
The T-35's majour drawbacks are the complexity of the tank. Only a skilled crew could operate this machine, as well a breakdown meant that the tank would have to be towed for repair. However for a tank of 1931 these are very minimal drawbacks when compared to the benifits.
Hope I haven't bored ya'll to death.
T-35
Battle mass: 50t
Crew: 11
Armament:
76.2mm KT-28, 2x45mm-1932, 6x7.62mm DTMG
Respective ammunition:
96/220/10080
Armour:
30mm welded plates
Powerplant:
M-17T, V12 carburator 500hp engine
Speed:
30kmh
BTD:
120km
It is important to note that the prototype for this tank was made in 1931 NOTE YEAR 1931<--- as a heavy-cruiser tank. The typical cruiser tank was developed at that time in most countries practicing arms developement (France, British Empire,
The British Empire has a tank quite similar in design A1E1 Independant, its a 4 turret (45mm/4MG) 31.5t tank with an 8 man crew with armour 13-28mm. OBVIOUSLY MUCH INFERIOR
In 1931 Germany isn't even allowed tanks, however they make a few resembling ww1 tanks with much of the same characteristics "Reinmetall".
Italy has a similar tank at the time the Fiat 2000 a 40t 10 man crew 15-20mm armoured tank with a 65mm cannon and seven 6.5mm MG's however there's a problem with this powerhouse!.. an old man can outWALK this tank in a walking competition, since it only reaches the spead of 6km/h!
France has a similar to T-35 tank which was used to battle germany for a few days... the 70t FCM 2C with a 12man crew 13-45mm armour plates 75mmgun and 5 8mm GcMG, the problem again is the powerplant a 180hp GIIIa later 250hp Maibach engine giving blazing speeds of 12km/h TRULLY A WEAPON OF BLITZ CREIG! if it could only keep up with the infantry.
You want armour? here you go:
Churchil Mk IV (A22) an impressive piece of junk metal made in 1939!!! 39.5t 5 man crew turtle with the speed of 12.8km/h offroad! armour? 12-102mm! WOW! but a 2lbs / 3 inch gun make my grandma more threatening.
Let's sum it all up.
The T-35 a tank in its time for its time... a masterpiece. With a 76mm main gun of 16.5 calibers capable starting velocity of 530m/s (note: 1931!!!) with the 45mm guns 46 caliber! anti tank guns capable of knocking out 45mm of armour!!! With observation towers implemented by other nations only in 1934-1942. Equiped with a radiostation for 15km com radius on movement and 30km stationary with 7 channel instant communication. Exerting a ground pressure of .78kg/cm^2 (note PzKpfw IV Ausf. D has .95kg/cm^2 hence less off road capability for a medium tank!!!)
On the chassis of the T-35 the SAU-SU-14-1 with a 203mm gun was later made.
Obviously by the begining of the German-Soviet war the tank was mediocre, but by no means bad! Since even the PzKpfw III Ausf. E is lighter armoured with only a 37,mm gun and similar speeds!
The T-35's majour drawbacks are the complexity of the tank. Only a skilled crew could operate this machine, as well a breakdown meant that the tank would have to be towed for repair. However for a tank of 1931 these are very minimal drawbacks when compared to the benifits.
Hope I haven't bored ya'll to death.
O.K. I got egg on my face! I didn't realize that the T-35 was actually designed in 1931. It also seems to be part of a trend of multi-turreted tanks. When you compare the Soviet design to the other European efforts, it actually comes off favouably! I guess we can blame the Brit Independent tank for this dead end of AFV design. - The T-35 still sucks, however it seems to represent the peak of the "Land Battleship" concept and as such is not a candidate for "Worst Tank". I withdraw my suggestion and I will admit that the T-35 still kinda facinates me....
Masterpiece
P.S. Even in my esteemed capacity of a Dumbass, I will not support the T-35 tank as a "Masterpiece".
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Belisarius
- Posts: 3099
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2001 8:00 am
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Re: The Bob Semple
HAHAHAHA!Originally posted by Hussar
OK everyone,
This Tank just has to take the first prize. There is no contest, this is absolutely the worst!!!
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/newz ... aland.html
I vote for Bob!
Got StuG?
I think its much harder to say what is worst tank than best tank...there are just too many bad tanks around, but ofc it depends of a lot things like what year and so on...one that pop-up on my mind was first series of T-34's with short barrel...they didnt hit anything compared to German panzers, but im sure there are more worst tanks around also...
Was just reading Anthony Beevors Stalingrad and in book he says T-34 was best tank in WW2...he dont say any specific model, but makes me wonder a bit cause i always tought that Germany had best panzers anyway...
Was just reading Anthony Beevors Stalingrad and in book he says T-34 was best tank in WW2...he dont say any specific model, but makes me wonder a bit cause i always tought that Germany had best panzers anyway...
"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone
I'm not sure if they are the worst Tanks because I haven't read much about their use but the British "Archer" with the gun mounted on the rear and the American "T3 Christie" Medium Tank with the ability to take the tracks off so it could be run on it's rubber wheels on the road are the strangest ones I've seen.
And those ideas were never used again that I know of - that says something!
Figmo
And those ideas were never used again that I know of - that says something!
Figmo
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, f
!!!
I should start by educating Figmo, as it will lead into the education of OKW...
Christie tanks:
In June of 1930 when the engineers of UMM RKKA visited the Unighted states for now only the second time, an agreement was struck between the american engineer Christie and his soviet counterparts.
This led to the redisigning of the Christie tank with better suspension armour artillery and powerplant to produce a series of BT-X tanks begining with the heavy production of BT-2 and ending with the BT-7M and BT-SV-2 (Cherepaha). The characteristics of these tanks were trully AMAZING.
BT-7M
Battle Mass 14.65t
Crew: 3
Armour:
Front: 20mm
Back/Side: 13mm
Armament: 45mm 20calibur m1934 gun, 2x7.62 MGDT
Powerplant: B-2 desil 500hp
!!!Speed on Wheels: 86km/h
!!!Speed on Tracks: 62 km/h
For the fools that may argue against the weak armour, I once again point to the powerplant and the speed characteristics of this tank. If armour was necessary thick armour plates could EASILY be introduced to compensate. The BT-SV-2 carried 40-45mm armour that could defend against any 45mm gun at any distance at the time. Note: the Pz III series only carried 37mm guns.
However these tanks were not inteded as heavy tanks. These were weapons of Soviet BlitzKrieg, that was about 4 times faster than anything the Axis could produce. The wheel/track system was designed for the LOCATION of the soviet blitzcrieg, Europe. There are little good roads in Russia, mainly railroads for transportation, therefore wheeled tanks are at a disadvantage. When Whermacht launched its offensive first, most BT tanks were used in a different way from what was intended and subsequently destroyed.
That's a very very brief history of the Soviet tracked tanks. (there were many more)
Now to the ABSURD outburst by OKW-75:
T-34 and TANKS in general:
On the 13th of October 1937 the Soviet government provided characteristics to match for a new class of medium tanks. From them came the A-20 and then the T-32 which was converted to the T-34 after periods of modification.
T-34 1941:
Battle Mass: 26.5t
Crew: 4
Armour:
Turret front: 65 mm
Front/side/rear: 45 mm
Top: 20 mm
Armament: 76.2mm F-34 m1940 gun two 7.62mm MGDT
Powerplant: B-2 V12 500hp engine
Speed: 54km/h
OP Radius: 400km
The Whermacht had only 310 total PzKpfw III Ausf. G tanks produced by April 1941. Not all of these tanks participated in battles on the Eastern front. The most common german III series tanks were A through E/F let me give you their best set of characteristics:
PzKpfw III Ausf. E
Battle Mass: 19.5t
Crew: 5
Armour
Front/side: 30mm
Top: 18mm
Armament: 37mm KwK L46.5 gun and three MG34 machineguns
Powerplant: Maibach HL120TR, V12 carburated 300hp engine
Speed: 40km/h
OP Radius: 165km
As you can see the medium tanks from Whermacht at the time could not compare in a single characteristic with the Soviet T-34 making it the best tank at the time. Not only that, but the T-34 was much easier to put together, hence the large production numbers.
The T-34 with the short barrel gun had become outdated in ONE DAY. As soon as the Tiger tank came out. Just like the Pz III models at the begining of the war the T-34 could no longer compare with this powerful adversary on paper. BUT (big BUT) the 34's still managed to deal powerful blows to the panzer core, just like the Pz III's in the begining of the war tore into the Soviet battle machines. Then came the T-34-85... and so on and so on.
I'm tired, and I'm not going to go into the history of tanks, what they're used for and what the Whermacht did to them in their desparation war. I hope what I said is enough to educate.
Christie tanks:
In June of 1930 when the engineers of UMM RKKA visited the Unighted states for now only the second time, an agreement was struck between the american engineer Christie and his soviet counterparts.
This led to the redisigning of the Christie tank with better suspension armour artillery and powerplant to produce a series of BT-X tanks begining with the heavy production of BT-2 and ending with the BT-7M and BT-SV-2 (Cherepaha). The characteristics of these tanks were trully AMAZING.
BT-7M
Battle Mass 14.65t
Crew: 3
Armour:
Front: 20mm
Back/Side: 13mm
Armament: 45mm 20calibur m1934 gun, 2x7.62 MGDT
Powerplant: B-2 desil 500hp
!!!Speed on Wheels: 86km/h
!!!Speed on Tracks: 62 km/h
For the fools that may argue against the weak armour, I once again point to the powerplant and the speed characteristics of this tank. If armour was necessary thick armour plates could EASILY be introduced to compensate. The BT-SV-2 carried 40-45mm armour that could defend against any 45mm gun at any distance at the time. Note: the Pz III series only carried 37mm guns.
However these tanks were not inteded as heavy tanks. These were weapons of Soviet BlitzKrieg, that was about 4 times faster than anything the Axis could produce. The wheel/track system was designed for the LOCATION of the soviet blitzcrieg, Europe. There are little good roads in Russia, mainly railroads for transportation, therefore wheeled tanks are at a disadvantage. When Whermacht launched its offensive first, most BT tanks were used in a different way from what was intended and subsequently destroyed.
That's a very very brief history of the Soviet tracked tanks. (there were many more)
Now to the ABSURD outburst by OKW-75:
T-34 and TANKS in general:
On the 13th of October 1937 the Soviet government provided characteristics to match for a new class of medium tanks. From them came the A-20 and then the T-32 which was converted to the T-34 after periods of modification.
T-34 1941:
Battle Mass: 26.5t
Crew: 4
Armour:
Turret front: 65 mm
Front/side/rear: 45 mm
Top: 20 mm
Armament: 76.2mm F-34 m1940 gun two 7.62mm MGDT
Powerplant: B-2 V12 500hp engine
Speed: 54km/h
OP Radius: 400km
The Whermacht had only 310 total PzKpfw III Ausf. G tanks produced by April 1941. Not all of these tanks participated in battles on the Eastern front. The most common german III series tanks were A through E/F let me give you their best set of characteristics:
PzKpfw III Ausf. E
Battle Mass: 19.5t
Crew: 5
Armour
Front/side: 30mm
Top: 18mm
Armament: 37mm KwK L46.5 gun and three MG34 machineguns
Powerplant: Maibach HL120TR, V12 carburated 300hp engine
Speed: 40km/h
OP Radius: 165km
As you can see the medium tanks from Whermacht at the time could not compare in a single characteristic with the Soviet T-34 making it the best tank at the time. Not only that, but the T-34 was much easier to put together, hence the large production numbers.
The T-34 with the short barrel gun had become outdated in ONE DAY. As soon as the Tiger tank came out. Just like the Pz III models at the begining of the war the T-34 could no longer compare with this powerful adversary on paper. BUT (big BUT) the 34's still managed to deal powerful blows to the panzer core, just like the Pz III's in the begining of the war tore into the Soviet battle machines. Then came the T-34-85... and so on and so on.
I'm tired, and I'm not going to go into the history of tanks, what they're used for and what the Whermacht did to them in their desparation war. I hope what I said is enough to educate.
Geez I hope you didn't hurt yourself Suvorov - but I knew all that. I know that the Cristie design was the basis for many tanks but the American T3 was a joke - IMHO.
My statement was that I hadn't read much about the Archer and American T3 tanks being used in action - have you? Actually, I think the T3 was scrapped before the war.
And the idea of taking the tracks off or putting the Main Gun on the rear of the tank haven't been used again - to my knowledge. Do you know of any?
Hope this clarifies my statement.
Figmo
My statement was that I hadn't read much about the Archer and American T3 tanks being used in action - have you? Actually, I think the T3 was scrapped before the war.
And the idea of taking the tracks off or putting the Main Gun on the rear of the tank haven't been used again - to my knowledge. Do you know of any?
Hope this clarifies my statement.
Figmo
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, f
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Belisarius
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ivantheterrible
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Sorry - I missed it with all the other info - at lunch during work I have to hurry. And the Archer is a British Tank. I've never tried it in the game - ahh - something to do tonight!!Originally posted by Suvorov
Did you read what I wrote above or not? I said all of the BT-X series tanks took their tracks off and even gave characteristics on that. As for the main gun on the rear... no only the americans can come up with something like that. (as far as I know)
Figmo
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, f
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Capt. Pixel
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- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Tucson, AZ
This is maybe not such a bizarre concept.Originally posted by Belisarius
Main gun on rear?
That goes for any early- to mid-war German TD as well, doesn't it?
Rather than a Tank Destroyer, consider the Archer platform as an Anti-Tank Gun with a really fast 'Shoot-and-Scoot' feature.
And, it can fire limbered (duh!)
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
- Stonewall Jackson
You may be right - I just checked it out and with that 17Lber it's like an 88 but really mobile.Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
This is maybe not such a bizarre concept.
Rather than a Tank Destroyer, consider the Archer platform as an Anti-Tank Gun with a really fast 'Shoot-and-Scoot' feature.
And, it can fire limbered (duh!)
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, f