Strat movement & game balance

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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MengJiao
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: jay102

Ok guys let's not start another fanboy war. After all it's a problem that the Soviet's has unrealistic rail capacity to shift every single division around the whole map in the same time evacuating every single factory.

Well, its respectable to play Axis, but if it is so painful to do, why not just play the Soviets? You get so many benefits: you are the despised, sub-human underdog, you get slaughtered by the steppe-load, you produce insanely wonderful gear like the T-34 and the Katyushas, you have a deranged leader far more brutal than Hitler, but with a certain touch of subhuman, animal cunning. You survive the winter like arctic beasts and in the end, you flat out pound the Axis to a pulp.

After being very sneaky in an advanced superior with a few million trainloads of advanced superior factory gear.

Can't beat that story line.

It seems only fair that if the Germans get hypersuperior superhuman mental abilities, the Russians should be very very good at loading and unloading
trains, in a strictly subhuman, antlike way, of course.


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Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Strat movement pool represents rolling stock. It's a week long turn. You can practically move anything within European Russia in a week, the only problem is getting enough rolling stock (railway cars, wagons).

Exactly: Rolling stock matters. If a train is finished with his job after 1 day (say moving a division 50 miles) then the train has extra capacity to move more divisions in this week.

This is not the case it is programmed right now, once the load cost of the division is taken out of the pool, movement distance (resulting possibly in remaining capacity of this exact train) is irrelevant, movement distance has no consequence on the pool.

Savings for the pool for shorter distances or penalties for longer transports are not implemented right now.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

If you think there are too many strat pool points to begin with, you might have a point, but if you think units, once loaded, move too far without any tradeoff, I disagree.

Actually I don't care about total size of the pool, though this can be an artificial way to balance transport capacity. What bothers me is lacking consequence of shorter/longer transports on the available pool size. The pool of train engines is mirrored, not so the time for which single trains are used (transport distance), which should matter.


The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.

Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

Units have 100 strategic movement points.  They loose 35 of them loading and 15 of them unloading so you can only move 50 hexes if you want to both load and unload in a turn.  This is assuming you start with a unit on the rail line.  If they have to move to the rail line you loose proportional to the cost, so if you used 10% of your movement points to get to the rail hex then you have only 90 strategic movement left...less 35, so 55 and if you want to unload that is now 40 hexes...that leaves you with 0 tactical movement left so you are stuck on the rail line.


Again: Forget loading/unloading and consequences on remaining MP of this unit. What matters to me is why it has no consequence on the pool if you move a unit 50 hexes (say you use the train for the full week) versus moving the unit for 7 hexes (say you use the train for one day).

Why do you have to pay the same transport cost (load cost of a unit) if you rail it 7 hexes or 50 hexes? The player should have a tradeoff, if he moves his units lower than max distance versus max distance, and the price should be mirrored in how much the strat transport pool (max train capacity) suffers during each transport. It DOES make a difference if a train is only used for 1 day or for 7 days....

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

...that leaves you with 0 tactical movement left so you are stuck on the rail line.

If you rail the unit to make a checkerboard, to make an additional obstacle (ZOC!) for the enemie's spearhead after a breakthrough, then remaining movement points don't matter much.

My point is: Creating checkerboards via strat movement is too easy right now, leading to obvious imbalances in pbem games at the moment: Bigger encirclements after turn 1 are just not possible if the (human) Soviet player acts reasonably careful, resulting in a huge-sized Red Army come Blizzard time. One possible remedy would be to confront the defending player with trade-offs when considering transport distances.

Moving half fronts across half the map in one turn is just too easy at the moment, methinks. The current strat transport system makes running away too easy for the Soviet side right now.


The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.

PMCN
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by PMCN »

Yes and no. The way the pool stands it doesn't bother me because it is a fixed cost thing and when I need it I burn through it in no time. First weeks of the campaign I am constantly struggling with that pool number, it isn't "easy" to do what you are suggesting.

If it cost a certain amount to load a unit and then I paid per hex I could live with that but the pool itself would be a different number and it would depend a lot of what that number was what I said about it. I would rather have it done the way you say because I use my rail for a lot of operational shifting to save my troops fatigue and spare trucks. I move everything I can by rail if the distance is more than 50 km. So I would win big time in such a change.

You are proposing something that in the end changes nothing of significance in my view. Probably doing it as you propoose is a net benefit to the Soviet player in the later stages of the game. It is, when I think more about it, significantly better to do it the way you suggest for me at least. I'd support it depending on how many tonne-km I get as an allowance. Especially if it means I can shift combat units more than 40 or so hexes per turn.

As Oleg said, if you argued the number of rail points is too generous there is scope for discussion. I can only say it is certainly not overly generous in those hectic first weeks. Also if you shift 30 tank divisions you don't move much else as each tank division is around 5000-8000 if memory serves. So you can't move that and move any factories, and I doubt you could move 30 tank divisions by rail even if you moved no factories. Moving heavy bomber airbases by rail is extremely expensive as well, upwards of 12000 per air base.
Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I'd support it depending on how many tonne-km I get as an allowance. Especially if it means I can shift combat units more than 40 or so hexes per turn.

It makes sense to limit max transport distance, that's not something I would want to take away. Siberian reinforcements didn't make the trip to moscow in one week.

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

You are proposing something that in the end changes nothing of significance in my view.

I have to insist it would. If you have a fix pool, and you could move 50 units max distance (say 50 hexes), the I should be able to move with this same pool 100 units (or a few less because of loading/unloading time that gets lost for every train each time) half of max distance. That's just not the case right now, you get no benefit for moving units less than max distance (remaining MP profit, sure, but you don't profit pool-wise), you always pay a fix price pool-wise regardless of moving distance.

At the moment the Sov player just has no real hard choices after turn 4 because he is too flexible moving his reserves around while at the same time evacuating his industry from threatened cities. The Soviets should face more tougher choices for a better pbem balance.

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

As Oleg said, if you argued the number of rail points is too generous there is scope for discussion. I can only say it is certainly not overly generous in those hectic first weeks. Also if you shift 30 tank divisions you don't move much else as each tank division is around 5000-8000 if memory serves. So you can't move that and move any factories, and I doubt you could move 30 tank divisions by rail even if you moved no factories. Moving heavy bomber airbases by rail is extremely expensive as well, upwards of 12000 per air base.

In a game as SU vs German AI I'm in turn 5. I have 139'581 rail capacity at turn start, no factories to be evacuated this turn (if you plan ahead and use remaining rail capacity at the end of every turn you'll NEVER have to emergency evac ANY factories), and my strongest tank div (10th TD) has a transport cost of 4590.

So I could not move 30 such divisions, but at least 25. Stack such units 3 high and you can severely restrict movement of German spearheads even in unfortified clear terrain in any region with rail hexes. Not to mention throwing reserve units into blocking positions in swamps.

Understand why I want to restrict beaming around sizeable reserve forces along rail tracks? Exploitable breakthroughs are hardly achievable after the first few turns against a competent Soviet player in circumstances like this. Players just should have to make the choice if they want to move fewer units for longer distances oder more units for shorter distances.




The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.

PMCN
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by PMCN »

As I said the real issue is the the number in the pool, not the mechanics of it specifically.  Dropping 3 units on a rail hex won't stop a break through in a human on human game.  They will just go around them, pocket them and the follow up infantry kills them.  You want to stop the Germans in the first few months you need: high entrenchment levels behind a river.  Nothing else works.  Even that won't stop them when they decide they want to attack but it will make them take a bit of time moving their units up and force them to use a determined rather than hasty attack.

You can't stack them 3 high except along the rail line anyway which opens them up to being pocketed you must have movement points left to get out of the hex otherwise your reserves don't amount to much till the next turn so you, in general, can't use them to stop gaps that show up that turn.  There are exceptions to this, such as near Bryansk but to exploit such things you must have "local" reserves to call on.  That sort of thing would happen under your proposal as well and probably would be easier to accomplish since I would use much less ton-miles to get them to the breach in the first place.

As far as changing the mechanism I'm for it depending on what the final number is but I honestly don't think it will make any significant difference as compared to the existing system.  I certainly don't see how it would stop the soviet player from shifting reserves if they choose to do so.  But if you shift significant reserves you can't move many factories.  There were more than a few turns where I did large scale troop movements, during those turns I could move no or very few factories.  I have an AAR on going so you are more then welcome to look and see what I was doing it is pretty much all there in brown and grey.
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by alfonso »

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

Savings for the pool for shorter distances or penalties for longer transports are not implemented right now.


but you said previuosly: "...early in the game the Soviet player can shift too many of his units too fast and too far while at the same time evacuating industries..."

Do you see that if savings for shorter distances are implemented, more units could be shifted? Perhaps you have two contradictory complains.

From a point of view of weekly turns, the time difference between 100 miles and 800 miles by train is not so relevant. I understand that railpoints are an abstraction not for distance, but for capacity, staffwork, train schedules,... I have no idea of the time lapses necessary to load 80 T-34s in a train (and unloading them from the train), provide a logistic network at the point of arrival, and re-establishing the chain of command, recognizing the terrain, searching housing for the troops, etc...but I like to imagine that they are together more relevant that the physical duration of the railtrip. Therefore all units can be thought of as if they were moving a long distance.

As a matter of fact a train at 40 miles/hour travels 960 miles/day, 6720 miles/week. But in the game it is not possible, because there is some degree of abstraction, averaging, etc...Maybe in the future even coal consume and train-driver fatigue is modeled, but that will be another game...


MengJiao
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: alfonso
ORIGINAL: Reconvet

Savings for the pool for shorter distances or penalties for longer transports are not implemented right now.


but you said previuosly: "...early in the game the Soviet player can shift too many of his units too fast and too far while at the same time evacuating industries..."

Do you see that if savings for shorter distances are implemented, more units could be shifted? Perhaps you have two contradictory complains.

From a point of view of weekly turns, the time difference between 100 miles and 800 miles by train is not so relevant. I understand that railpoints are an abstraction not for distance, but for capacity, staffwork, train schedules,... I have no idea of the time lapses necessary to load 80 T-34s in a train (and unloading them from the train), provide a logistic network at the point of arrival, and re-establishing the chain of command, recognizing the terrain, searching housing for the troops, etc...but I like to imagine that they are together more relevant that the physical duration of the railtrip. Therefore all units can be thought of as if they were moving a long distance.

As a matter of fact a train at 40 miles/hour travels 960 miles/day, 6720 miles/week. But in the game it is not possible, because there is some degree of abstraction, averaging, etc...Maybe in the future even coal consume and train-driver fatigue is modeled, but that will be another game...




I think you are totally correct.
gradenko2k
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by gradenko2k »

I don't see where you're all coming from that the Soviets have no limitations on rail movement: Strategic movement points is the cap.

After all, the limit on how far a unit can travel in a week by train should be expressed as something WITHIN the unit, shouldn't it?
Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: alfonso

but you said previuosly: "...early in the game the Soviet player can shift too many of his units too fast and too far while at the same time evacuating industries..."

Do you see that if savings for shorter distances are implemented, more units could be shifted? Perhaps you have two contradictory complains.


Implementing movement distance impact per unit move does not mean NOT adapting - meaning reducing - the already abstracted strat movement point pool. Do one thing is good, do both even better (and absolutely necessary because calculating travelled cargo-miles into pool use cost would require finding a new balance for total cargo capacity of course).

ORIGINAL: alfonso

From a point of view of weekly turns, the time difference between 100 miles and 800 miles by train is not so relevant. I understand that railpoints are an abstraction not for distance, but for capacity, staffwork, train schedules,... I have no idea of the time lapses necessary to load 80 T-34s in a train (and unloading them from the train), provide a logistic network at the point of arrival, and re-establishing the chain of command, recognizing the terrain, searching housing for the troops, etc...but I like to imagine that they are together more relevant that the physical duration of the railtrip. Therefore all units can be thought of as if they were moving a long distance.


I admit you half convinced me here. But if you are consequent, then you remove any remaining movement points of every strat transported unit at the end of the move. If getting organized for and after a train trip is responsible for the pool cost, and if this makes travelled miles irrelevant, then you have to remove remaining MP after every rail trip, not only the longer ones. Thus taking away the chance to move short-trainhopping troops into a nearby swamp for example. If you give the unit MP after a shorter train trip then you have to give back part of the strat movement cost to the pool.

In the end for pbem-balance it's important that not dozens of units can be beamed behind a breakthrough-region via rail. I haven't seen any AAR yet in which even an experienced Axis player had a remote chance to beat checkerboard tactics, and checkerboarding in combination with overproportionned strat movement capacities (allowing forming solid fortified fallback positions) obviously can't be beaten at the moment, leading to lesser losses, higher exp and OOB-gains for Soviet units. That's why we see this many Axis players hitting a wall in pbem way before they should.

ORIGINAL: alfonso

As a matter of fact a train at 40 miles/hour travels 960 miles/day, 6720 miles/week. But in the game it is not possible, because there is some degree of abstraction, averaging, etc...Maybe in the future even coal consume and train-driver fatigue is modeled, but that will be another game...


I am no expert in which condition the Soviet railway system was in WWII. I think I remember reading that most tracks back then could be used in one way only, and that because of the soft ground many tracks had to be built on and because of the harsh climate tracks were in quite poor condition, not allowing maximum train speeds.

How long does the Transsiberian express from Moscow to Vladivostok take to travel nowadays? 10 days? How much longer would it have been in WWII with poorer tracks and rolling stock? 6720 miles per week may be possible with today's rail technology, no way 70 years ago in Russia...

I have to come back to my request to implement lower strat pool costs for shorter trips and a higher cost for max range trips.

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Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I don't see where you're all coming from that the Soviets have no limitations on rail movement: Strategic movement points is the cap.

After all, the limit on how far a unit can travel in a week by train should be expressed as something WITHIN the unit, shouldn't it?

As long as units have no train engines and wagons in their OOB and don't build their own tracks for the move, it's obviously a calculation of OUTSIDE factors. [;)]

Regarding rail movement cap: I'm not the only one who considers Strat movement pool points as too high at the moment. In every AAR I read so far the Soviet player was able to shift tons of reserve troops easily in every relevant sector (AGN + AGC), without being confronted with hard choices. Timely factory evacuations are no problem whatsoever if remaining pool points at the end of the turn are used for that and no excessive shortrange railhopping for combat units is practised.



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JAMiAM
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by JAMiAM »

I tend to favor reconvet's point of view here, as it is something that bothers me, as well. Whether I'm playing the Axis, or the Soviets, I find the current method where you use the same amount of rail cap for a 20 mile ride as you do for a 1000 mile ride...lacking.

I feel that there is a very easy (to code) solution available. Since all Strat movement is based on a 100 MP maximum usage per unit, just multiply by the proportion of MPs expended by the unit in strat mode - to include loading, movement, and unloading - and use that adjusted total for the actual reduction to the rail cap. If necessary for game balancing, then adjust total cap accordingly.

Since a significant portion of the Strat MPs are expended in loading and unloading, this will still favor long hauls for the most efficient use of rail cap. However, it still allows the players to move larger bunches of units over short hauls to save wear and tear on the truck-based supply assets.

Then, of course, we need to get interdiction fixed so that units moving by Strat movement are actually attacked, instead of getting a free ride. This is one of my pet peeves about the game.
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LiquidSky
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by LiquidSky »



The Rail Cap is physical space. That physical space wont change just because a unit travels less distance. Time is measured in movement points. So after a short hop by train, the unit can move on its merry way if it has time (movement points) left. That physical space (the cap) representing the train that carried the unit is not available to move anything else this turn, because there is no guarentee that it can get to another unit in time to move it.

What you get, instead is an average. In points. Some of the points can be used twice for shorter hops by just increaing the size of the pool. If you say 25% of the trips are short, then add 25% to the points. If the trips take longer then a week (the unit is stil entrained), then deduct those points from the pool.

I have yet to play a Russian front game that didnt allow mass train transport of the Russian army.
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JAMiAM
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



The Rail Cap is physical space. That physical space wont change just because a unit travels less distance. Time is measured in movement points.

I think that what reconvet, and I, are arguing for is that the Rail Cap should be factor of Space-Time, and not simply Space.
alfonso
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by alfonso »

As I said, I think there is some degree of averaging and abstracting in the train system. You (Reconvet) are proposing a more concrete system, because you feel that would be a better representation of the reality. But in this case you fail to consider which is the true impact of implementing your system. The distance by rail from Moscow to Leningrad is 40 hexes, and to Orel is 21 hexes. Are you proposing that to rail transfer from Moscow to Orel should cost aprox 50% of the rail transfer to Leningrad? This would be if the limiting factor is only the distance, but I doubt it seriously. Some time has to be expended loading the trains, I would think, and the workhours (which are also abstracted inside railpoints) of the crane operators are the same irrespective of the destination, as is the paperwork of the Transportation Bureau. If to transfer a Division from Moscow to Leningrad costs 1000 rail points, how many do you consider fair for a transfer to Orel? 525 (1000*21/40)? 700? 900? Why? Now, it is also 1000. Ok, it is a simplification, but, my subjective feeling is that anything above 800 makes it unnecessary the coding effort. For shorter distances, there is already the penalization for loading and unloading, so it is very doubtful that someone uses rail transfer for distances much shorter than 20 hexes (although if you make them very cheap it could be taken into consideration!). And the maximum of rail transfer of an active division is 55 (because 45 are only for load/unload) hexes, so for normal ranges (25-55 hexes) I doubt there should be significant differences in terms of game balance.

Besides, as it the system is implemented now, distance is not completely irrelevant, because after a short trip there are movement points remaining, to simulate than in that week other things could be done. And the maximum for a unit already trained is 100 hexes (1000 miles), normally is only used by Division that in reality can be considered to come from “….very very very far away….”

My impression is that what you really want is less railpoints for the Soviets, but that is a different matter
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Muzrub
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Muzrub »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
I must admit it is getting boring.

LOL! Well, how many Soviet divisions do you want to swallow? 10, 20, 80? The whole Red Army except some lousy reserves in Moscow and Leningrad to make a last, decisive stand...? [:-]


Yawn- are you serious?

Surely you've played the game and dealt with the frustration of magically moving Soviet lines?

I would play as the Soviets- but with the benefits you seem to get it would seem like a cheat![8|]
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Surely you've played the game and dealt with the frustration of magically moving Soviet lines?

"an entire front runs away for miles", "then retreats for miles", that's what you said. On my book that means you aren't swallowing a lot of Soviet units. And you are apparently unhappy because of that. Hey, NOT my fault [:)]

NO, I haven't played this game at ALL. You're 100% correct [8D]
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Zort
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Zort »

If I remember from my reading is that most german inf divisions marched to the front. I think the Spanish Blue div took over a month to get to Leningrad. So if we want to do it right then there should be little german troop movement by rail the first year east of the polish border. (now this comment will start another burst of responses [:)] ).

As has been stated in several other places, the soviet factories can move much further then any other unit in the game. So it has been suggested that factory movement be limited to the same restrictions as any other unit. Otherwise the rail movement abstraction is just fine. Anymore detail will me we will have to manage each train.

A question on how the rails were managed, since most lines were single tracked, how did they get multiple trains to one place and turn them around and not run into incoming trains?

Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »


ORIGINAL: alfonso

For shorter distances, there is already the penalization for loading and unloading,
....

Besides, as it the system is implemented now, distance is not completely irrelevant, because after a short trip there are movement points remaining, ....

"Penalization" for the UNIT (MP's remaining), sure, but no bonus or malus for the strat movement point POOL. The full rolling stock price is paid and deducted from the pool (the loading cost as it appears in the unit detail screen), whether transport is for minimum or maximum range. It makes no difference to the pool deduction if you move a unit 6 hexes or 50 hexes.

Imagine a train transporting cargo 50 miles or 500 miles. Don't you think this train could and would be used for transporting more cargo on several more trips if time allows it because of a lower distance on one run? It really doesn't feel right as it's programmed at the moment. How you use your limited strat transport pool points should be linked to how far you move single units and factories. Travel distance should have an impact on the strat point pool. I don't think humanity had beaming tech in WWII...

ORIGINAL: alfonso

My impression is that what you really want is less railpoints for the Soviets, but that is a different matter


I consider tweaking of the transport pool a necessity for pbem balancing, yep, but linking transport distance with strat point pool calculation goes beyond that. Strat transport pool points should not only be an abstraction of CARGO SPACE and loading/unloading management, but should also consider transport DISTANCE which means transport TIME.

Right now only one bottleneck of every logistical system is implemented: Cargo space. Distance/asset use time is not factored in at the moment. I'd like to be able to use the same train more than once if I only use it for a fraction of the week. Laziness is neither tolerated in the worker's paradise nor in Führer's obedient workforce...


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Reconvet
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RE: Strat movement & game balance

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Zort


A question on how the rails were managed, since most lines were single tracked, how did they get multiple trains to one place and turn them around and not run into incoming trains?


Build a good trainlength of double tracks once in a while, so one train can wait there on the sidetrack and let another train coming his way pass, and then gets going againg after the object on collision course has passed. As simple as that.

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