What If

[KG Erwin]

It's easy to get caught up in "what-if's". That's the raison d'etre for wargaming. In all wars that's an intriguing concept, but none intrigues gamers more than the might-have-beens of WWII. The MOST intriguing possiblity for me is the possibility of Britain making peace with Germany after the fall of France. In that light, the European War would've been over, except for Hitler's desire to turn east. I still believe this was the true turning point of the war in Europe--Britain's refusal to concede. Hitler, according to David Irving (heh, heh) , reasoned that Britain herself had a legitimate and compelling reason to ally herself with Germany in the upcoming war with Bolshevism. Given the Cold War and the Iron Curtain, was he necessarily WRONG in this belief? I would add that Hitler foresaw that Churchill would lead Britain to ruin and the loss of its empire. THIS is where the British have a nut against Hitler, BUT he's wrongfully accused. Hitler WANTED an alliance with Britain, NOT a miltary conquest. It was only AFTER Churchill's stubborn refusal for an accomodation that invasion plans were contemplated, though half-heartedly.

[Orzel Bialy]

However, for any theory of a peace settlement to have taken place would have required one more "what if".... or really more of an "only if". And that would be only if Winston Churchill had not been selected to be the PM position.
Once Winston was in office....there was no way a peace agreement was going to be hammered out, short of German invasion enforcing one.
Regardless of his opinion of Communism, both during and after the war, Churchill loathed Hitler more so than Stalin...so any "great alliance to save Europe" was not in the cards once the campaign in the West had errupted.

[KG Erwin]

IF Britain/Germany had allied themselves, this could have led to many alternatives, including NO creation of Israel in the Middle East, and NO Holocaust. The idea was to export Europe's Jews, NOT exterminate them. In that light, an exodus to any number of points, including America, would have resulted. Stalin would still be enemy nr.1 , BUT his strategic options facing Germany's army and Britain's navy would be extremely limited. Relations with America? Diplomatic and trading. The US-Japanese situation? What do you think?

[Orzel Bialy]

Again, interesting in theory. However, it goes far beyond the "what if " this had happened in WW2?" boundaries. For any alliance like this to have formed it would have had to have happened before 1936-37' at the latest.
By 1938-39 there was no room for this theory to take place as France and England had already made up their minds to contain Hitler (via the protection offers to Poland/Greece)...once he had showed them that he could not be taken at his word. (ie Munich and Czechoslovkia)
So this what if would have needed a lot more assistance than those what if's that concern individual battles and campaigns. Not that it isn't a very interesting concept mind you...don't get me wrong.

[pops]

....yea ....I don't think there's a "what if...?" there.......Churchill (God love him....) would never have allowed it.....

[Egg_Shen]

Originally posted by Orzel Bialy
the silliest thing I've ever read on this forum. I hope you were joking...if not you need some serious history lessons my friend.

Now perhaps you will say that I am bias because I am an American...but Hitler with the bomb? The world better off with the Nazis and Imperialist Japanese governing seperate spheres?

Have you heard of the word "Concentration Camp" Egg_Shen? Or how about the Rape of Nanking? The Axis Powers were not exactly Noble Peace Prize candidates.

awe come on man, it's for the "greater good", Like HollyWood's movie Swordfish


hmm come to think of it
since the US went nuke crazy at the end of the war, Hitler couldn't have done much worse.

[Hussar]

What if..
Britain had not stood alone after the fall of France defying the Nazis and then single handedly (with Pilots from all over the Empire and the US and the defeated countries of Europe)defeated the Luftwaffe thereby preventing the Naxi invasion of Britain?
Only Captain Mainwaring to defend Britain against the beastly Hun (You have to be a Brit to understand that one!)
No North African campaign and so all those German Divisions released for Barbarossa and a German victory in Russia.
The Japanese receiving oil and supplies from their Axis partners who now have all of the material reserves of the British Empire, before they attack the US interests in the Pacific...it doesn't bear thinking about.
Thank God for the British!

[Gary Tatro]

Originally posted by Egg_Shen


awe come on man, it's for the "greater good", Like HollyWood's movie Swordfish


hmm come to think of it
since the US went nuke crazy at the end of the war, Hitler couldn't have done much worse.

Egg_Shen

Either the history books your reading are vastly different from the ones that I read or you just have not taken the time to sit down and read about the end of the war. It was not crazyness, it was about saving lives and ending the war.

Japan refused to surrender.

It was calculated that the death toll would have been astronomical to try an amphibious invations of Japan proper. This was the reason for Heroshima. The bomb was used to save soliders lives and end the war and that is what it did.

The US then went in and rebuilt the whole Country. Gave it the industrial foundation to make it into the commercial power that it is today.

I see in your profile that you young. But you should still know about the Holocast. It was not propoganda trust me. I have a Grand father that was there in 1945. He has pictures. He almost never talked about it, but when he did it gave me nightmares.

I feel that our Country does what it has to do. The alternatives I feel are worse. Genocide, starvation, plague.

I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. But please remember that the US citizen is just like every other person in the world. They go to work, try to get ahead, raise a family and try to lead a good life.

I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred.

[Easy8]

Gary,

Well put.

I owe you a beer or beverage of your choice!

Let's PBEM sometime!

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Stalin surrenderd the western Soviet Union to Germany in late 1941 early 1942. This was a real possibility. There were talks going on between Soviet reps and the Bulgarian Ambassador with the results of these talks going directly to Hitler. In the end of course the Russians desided to stand fast. Probably because of reassurances from the British of their full support. Churchill behind the sceens again? On the other hand Hitler may not have accepted the surrender and may still have tried to take it all. But what if?;)

[Egg_Shen]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro


Egg_Shen

Either the history books your reading are vastly different from the ones that I read or you just have not taken the time to sit down and read about the end of the war. It was not crazyness, it was about saving lives and ending the war.

Japan refused to surrender.

It was calculated that the death toll would have been astronomical to try an amphibious invations of Japan proper. This was the reason for Heroshima. The bomb was used to save soliders lives and end the war and that is what it did.

The US then went in and rebuilt the whole Country. Gave it the industrial foundation to make it into the commercial power that it is today.

I see in your profile that you young. But you should still know about the Holocast. It was not propoganda trust me. I have a Grand father that was there in 1945. He has pictures. He almost never talked about it, but when he did it gave me nightmares.

I feel that our Country does what it has to do. The alternatives I feel are worse. Genocide, starvation, plague.

I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. But please remember that the US citizen is just like every other person in the world. They go to work, try to get ahead, raise a family and try to lead a good life.

I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred.

it still stands beside "Concentration Camps" and the Rape of Nanking. There is a reason we don't use them anymore M'kay?:)

[Penetrator]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro

I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. ...

I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred.

Why are some people so sensitive? Egg just mentioned he disagrees with a single thing your country did, and so he feels "strongly negative" about the country as a whole? And is it "bashing", or "disdain and hatred"?
Any large and powerful nation does things out of self interest, often trampling on other peoples' in the progress. The USA is no exception. Why is it so offensive to point these things out? Not that everyone must agree.

[Orzel Bialy]

has irked Americans by comparing our behavior with that of Hitler. Most Americans would not try to say that we have not done things that were wrong...both in the reasons for those actions and how they were carried out.
However, if he wants to compare us to Hitlerhe must know that that will always draw a rebuke...like it or not. While we are not perfect, if it weren't for our industrial capacity and manpower reserves history would be far different...and I don't think it too far fetched to say that the old Eggster could be living in a world that doesn't accord him all the freedoms he envisions in his little dream world.
OK, that was a bit sarcastic...and I usually try to remain objective. But if you want to speak your mind you must understand and be ready to accept the rebukes...both mild and strong. It's part of the price of having Freedom of Speech!

[Goblin]

Take it over to 'The Art of Wargaming', people.

[screamer]

egg-_shen


It is always hard to view things from a totally other perspective, like the US condemming pal attacks or backing israel might create enemies or basing US troops on ''holy ground''[saudi arabia] will ager some peapole.there is no way to go around it


The US is the same as the Roman empire in the early ages, the spanish in the 15century,the dutch in the 17th french in the 18th and british in the 19th all world powers bacxk then, but as you get power alot of others will be jealous and be against you.
Sure i oppose a number of US policies, but to oppose the US peapole is riduclous.


for the what ifs,

the japanese had invaded Ph in december 41, all us ships had to operate from the west coast.
doorman very luckily won in the java sea.
the germans started new tank development earlyer, and tiger participating in barbarossa.
what if the allies never got hands on enigma, and th XXIboats where in cervice a year/6months earlyer

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Nice thread, but I guess I have already been busy enough in "Most Pivtal Batlle of WW2" in the General Forum.

If you havent seen it it's worth a look too I hope guys.

[Penetrator]

Well I have a "what if" for you dudes.

What if Hitler had not been put off, but had launched operation sealion as planned?

My guess is it would have succeeded and Britain would have been defeated.

[DerC]

If I can just make a small correction..

I remember reading (William Shirer: Rise and fall of the third reich)that the Kriegsmarine could not assemble enough landing craft. Since Hitler hesitated to make the decision to start the preparations for the invasion, the RAF could regroup and would have been strong enough to stop the attack. They actually sunk dozens of the landing craft already assembled at the shores of France during the fall of 1940. Also, the German navy didn't have enough ships to provide support for the landing troops.

As for my 'what if'... I couldn't think of anything else except what if operation Barbarossa had been started two or three months earlier? I know, it's been said before and it's not that good.

[Gary Tatro]

The Germans had read history and remembered that everyone else that had invaded Russia had been decimated by the Russian winter and had prepared accordingly. Proper clothing for the troops, heavy oils and wheel chains for the vehicles. Plows for the roads. They would have never lost momentum or the initiative in winter 41/42.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

What if Germany had gone to a war production footing before 1942?