Catalina's over rated

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

"I whine therefore I am" Descartes

Would you like some cheese to go with that Whine? [:D]

[bradfordkay]

A nice Port Salut will do just fine, thank you...

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you were playing the other side, you'd be whining about how "over rated" the Emily was...[8|]

INDEED![:D]

I would never have believed Steve's bad luck with Miss Emily if I hadn't seen it for myself the second time it happened to him. He had me completely on the run in 1000 Mile War and in desperation I thought "If it worked for Chickenboy, maybe it will work for me." I couldn't believe it.

[oldman45]

Well I for one never whine about emily, its the nells and bettys that get me whining [:D]

oh, and we can't forget missy, sarah, robin, joann. I think thats all of them now. [8D]

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Well I for one never whine about emily, its the nells and bettys that get me whining [:D]

oh, and we can't forget missy, sarah, robin, joann. I think thats all of them now. [8D]

Channeling your best Lou Bega?

"A little bit of Monica in my life ....."

[findmeifyoucan]

I actually had good escorts with that CVL like a BB, 2x CL's and about 6 DD's. lol

[CV2]

Date is 21 Dec 41 (all 3 attacks on this date). Note PBYs start with torp attack experience under 20. These aircraft are launching from Bataan a level 1 airfield level 2 port (note: naval attack airstrikes can not launch from a level 1 airfield and if using port size as airfield size for the Cats, a level 2 would cause a reduced bomb load). No AV/AVD/AVP is in the hex.

Case 1) 4 PBYs attack a ship in thunderstorms and get 3 hits.
Case 2) 5 PBYs attack a DD and a small patrol boat and get 1 hit.
Case 3) (my favorite) 8 PBYs attack a TF with fighter cover and still manage 4 hits.

My questions are these:
Number 1. Why were these raids allowed to fly to begin with? No AV type ships in the hex and only a level 1 airfield (granted PBYs dont use airfields, but still).
Number 2. Why were these planes carrying torpedoes? No AV type ships in the hex and no HQs with torps in the PI and yet they are carrying torps on strikes.
Number 3. Why are pilots with 20 or less torpedo experience hitting with such deadly accuracy?
Number 4. How is it an 8 plane strike that gets intercepted and loses 1 plane with at least 2 more damaged (since only 5 attacked) manage 80% hits? Average experience for that fighter unit is 72. The lowest 4 experienced pilots (assuming these 4 made the intercept) is 70, 70, 69, and 66.
Number 5. (actually a repeat of number 2) Where are these planes getting their torpedoes? They should at BEST be flying with reduced loads.

Now the up side of this of course is the allies have a very limited number of Cats. While the Japanese player can build as many Emilys as he wants. I have just doubled my Emily factories in this game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Catanduanes at 83,81

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes


Allied aircraft
PBY-4 Catalina x 4


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AK Sakura Maru, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk


Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PBY-4 Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Catanduanes at 83,81

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes


Allied aircraft
PBY-4 Catalina x 5


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Asagiri
PB Kantori Maru, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x PBY-4 Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Taytay at 75,81

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4

Allied aircraft
PBY-4 Catalina x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-4 Catalina: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
xAK Nissen Maru, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAKL Kembu Maru

Japanese ground losses:
515 casualties reported
Squads: 22 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PBY-4 Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
1 x PBY-4 Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
Yamada Det S-2 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 24000
Raid is overhead

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: CV2

Date is 21 Dec 41 (all 3 attacks on this date). Note PBYs start with torp attack experience under 20. These aircraft are launching from Bataan a level 1 airfield level 2 port (note: naval attack airstrikes can not launch from a level 1 airfield and if using port size as airfield size for the Cats, a level 2 would cause a reduced bomb load). No AV/AVD/AVP is in the hex.

Case 1) 4 PBYs attack a ship in thunderstorms and get 3 hits.
Case 2) 5 PBYs attack a DD and a small patrol boat and get 1 hit.
Case 3) (my favorite) 8 PBYs attack a TF with fighter cover and still manage 4 hits.

My questions are these:
[...]

Now the up side of this of course is the allies have a very limited number of Cats. While the Japanese player can build as many Emilys as he wants. I have just doubled my Emily factories in this game.

Well, I suspect the rate of hits is linked to the number of torpedoes carried. Just mod a test-scenario with two torpedoes on Nells or Betties, and a low torpedo skill, and see what it gives as a result.
BTW, 3 attacks with a total of 17 planes is again too small a set to deduce any conclusion...

As to your questions:

Number 1. Why were these raids allowed to fly to begin with? No AV type ships in the hex and only a level 1 airfield (granted PBYs dont use airfields, but still).

AV type ships and AV squads are not a requisite for launching missions, but to repair the planes. You can fly them from an AV-less base, but they'll all end up damaged, eventually.

Number 2. Why were these planes carrying torpedoes? No AV type ships in the hex and no HQs with torps in the PI and yet they are carrying torps on strikes.
Number 5. (actually a repeat of number 2) Where are these planes getting their torpedoes? They should at BEST be flying with reduced loads.

Air and Command HQ may allow the use of torpedoes by any squadron within their command radius.

Number 3. Why are pilots with 20 or less torpedo experience hitting with such deadly accuracy?
Number 4. How is it an 8 plane strike that gets intercepted and loses 1 plane with at least 2 more damaged (since only 5 attacked) manage 80% hits? Average experience for that fighter unit is 72. The lowest 4 experienced pilots (assuming these 4 made the intercept) is 70, 70, 69, and 66.

See above : I suspect that the number of hits is high because 1) your test sample is small, and 2) because the number of torpedoes carried. This is the same problem as the skip-bombing : lower-XP pilots with B-17 will hit much more than equally low-XP pilots with A-20, because the former holds much more bombs than the latter.

[CV2]

Has anyone ever seen a strike of PBYs not score a hit? I cant say that I have.





Ever.






And I have played AE for 3 or 4 years now.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: CV2

Has anyone ever seen a strike of PBYs not score a hit? I cant say that I have.





Ever.






And I have played AE for 3 or 4 years now.

Yes, more than once in our current PBEM game, up to late March '42. We've had some good hits as well, but still plenty of misses.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: CV2

Has anyone ever seen a strike of PBYs not score a hit? I cant say that I have.





Ever.






And I have played AE for 3 or 4 years now.

Yes, more than once in our current PBEM game, up to late March '42. We've had some good hits as well, but still plenty of misses.

Now if we could trade them in for those @#$$%%^^&&&^%$$% Emily's! Then we'd score![:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: CV2

Has anyone ever seen a strike of PBYs not score a hit? I cant say that I have.





Ever.






And I have played AE for 3 or 4 years now.

Yes, more than once in our current PBEM game, up to late March '42. We've had some good hits as well, but still plenty of misses.

And some butchered by CAP. They are quite a vulnerable airframe.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: CV2

Has anyone ever seen a strike of PBYs not score a hit? I cant say that I have.





Ever.






And I have played AE for 3 or 4 years now.

Yes, more than once in our current PBEM game, up to late March '42. We've had some good hits as well, but still plenty of misses.

Now if we could trade them in for those @#$$%%^^&&&^%$$% Emily's! Then we'd score![:D]

Emily..... [:D]

[obvert]

They definitely miss. And get eaten by CAP. But I still use them.

This whole game is about adapting new strategies that wouldn't have been used IRL because there were real men in those planes, and loss rates would be unacceptable. But here, and with your back against the wall, instead of sending carriers out into the fray and getting them sunk, you use what you have.

Maybe the US should have used more long range bombing and torpedo capable planes instead of getting so many carriers sunk in 42. There were a lot of men on those too.

[AW1Steve]

Although I myself don't generally use PBY's as attack aircraft as they are way too valuable for patrol air craft, I'd like to point out a historic fact that might have some bearing on this discussion. When the USN accepted the the 1st PBY (then intended to be a PY), it's attack features so impressed officials that they changed the designator from Patrol- Consolidated (P=Patrol aircraft and Y was the builders code for the Consolidated aircraft company) tp Patrol Bomber Consolidated, or PBY. While we might not be impressed with the PBY's abilities, the USN was. May I also refer to a "campaign" off the Aluetians called the "PBY Blitz" or the "Kiska blitz" in which USN Cap. Thomas Gatch used his two squadrons of PBY's as bombers against the Japanese on Kiska.

Even "Tokyo Rose" commented on the New USN dive bomber that looked suspiciously like a PBY. [:)]

[findmeifyoucan]

Well, I had 10 unescorted Catalina's against 12 experienced zeroes with 4 getting through against my CVL task force. All 4 hit the CVL for about 60% damage on turn 3 of the GC. I'd say it was deadly. lol

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Well, I had 10 unescorted Catalina's against 12 experienced zeroes with 4 getting through against my CVL task force. All 4 hit the CVL for about 60% damage on turn 3 of the GC. I'd say it was deadly. lol

How do you know it wasn't 2 of 4 striking with 2 torps each? also known as a 50% hit rate....

[findmeifyoucan]

Good point but I still think they are overated with the average Catalina pilot in the first week of the war having just 20% experience and having such deadly accuracy verses any other naval torpedo bomber on either side. After all they are supposed to be search planes not naval torpedo bombers. lol

[Mynok]

Do not beleve AW1Steve's claims that he doesn't generally use PBY's as attack aircraft. He does and often. I have combat report evidence. [:D]

[Erkki]

Besides weather, altitude, experience of shooter and defender, cohesion, plane durability and armor and the guns themselves, are there other factors that effect the flak vs. aircraft resolution? The Catalina is so slow(and big) that it should be pretty easy target for the gunners, at least compared to, say, D3As or B5Ns. And the Japanese H6K/H8K even more so to Allies radar-guided AAA later in the war.

Have myself seen Catalinas attack naval units only twice, they sank an xAK (6 sorties combined) without a loss. Escorts were just PBs and a couple DDs though.