Question on Estab values

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Lieste
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:50 am

RE: Question on Estab values

Post by Lieste »

Almost? exclusively. (Errors and omissions excepted :) )

Where the 'calculated' weight isn't silly-small, the ammunition tab comes out to = that in the weapon tab and is 'a' projectile mass for an ammunition in that calibre or close - 12.2cm weapons use 12.8cm PaK ammunition, HE weights sometimes are differentiated, but not always etc.

There are a few exceptions of course, just to invalidate any attempt to just multiply through by a factor [:D]

50 cal seems reasonable, and some 'light rounds' (eg HL39) using a generic 'heavy' AP/HE packaged weight come out close. On the whole everything else is 25%-300% too light, with most mid-calibre, mid-velocity stuff about half the packed weight.
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simovitch
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RE: Question on Estab values

Post by simovitch »

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Almost? exclusively. (Errors and omissions excepted :) )

Where the 'calculated' weight isn't silly-small, the ammunition tab comes out to = that in the weapon tab and is 'a' projectile mass for an ammunition in that calibre or close - 12.2cm weapons use 12.8cm PaK ammunition, HE weights sometimes are differentiated, but not always etc.

There are a few exceptions of course, just to invalidate any attempt to just multiply through by a factor [:D]

50 cal seems reasonable, and some 'light rounds' (eg HL39) using a generic 'heavy' AP/HE packaged weight come out close. On the whole everything else is 25%-300% too light, with most mid-calibre, mid-velocity stuff about half the packed weight.
OK, I will work through them again based on your findings. Thank you for your diligence.
simovitch

Lieste
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:50 am

RE: Question on Estab values

Post by Lieste »

There are a whole range of interesting data-points scattered through the 51 bulletins of the UK Ammunition Bulletin series (1940-1946)

Some important information is still missing, but much can be inferred from what does exist... usefully they do include empty weights of their packing crates (or filled weight and per-round weight and quantity). Some of the boxes are surprisingly heavy... while equivalent 'special purpose' (ie non motorised (airbourne/mountain)) packaging is a fraction of these weights.

eg 24 rounds 40mm Bofors: 15.44kg box, 3.45 kg (total weight for 4x6 wicker baskets for 'ready' airborne use). In each case the 24 rounds would add 59.28kg, with the 24 'projectiles' being around 31.7kg

Projectile (for 24) 31.7kg
Rounds (for 24) 59.28kg (ie cases & propellants = 27.6kg)
Packaging (normal use) 15.44kg
Total weight (for 24 rounds) 74.72kg (+135% excess weight over projectiles)
Packaging (immediate supply/use by airborne forces) 3.45kg
Total weight (for 24 rounds) 62.73kg (+97% excess weight over projectiles)

Useful information on some Separate loading charges and cartridges as well, but still not enough to eliminate all uncertainty.
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simovitch
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RE: Question on Estab values

Post by simovitch »

I'm going to use your spreadsheet as a guideline for the most part, but keep it generalized overall, since the impact on game play (resupply) is going to be nominal.

something like:

small arms - 20mm X2
20-40mm X1.8
40-90mm X1.6
90-105mm X1.5
>105mm X1.25

How does that look?
simovitch

Lieste
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:50 am

RE: Question on Estab values

Post by Lieste »

A lot better :)

I'd push everything up a little, as I underestimated packaging weight in general (due to early focus on reduced packaging ammunitions in German Horse drawn artillery/infantry), and underestimated the general packaging weights on Sep Loading Powder (this is x2-x3 as a minimum, and powder weight is ) - not a factor for small LV weapons, but becomes burdensome for Gun-How or larger calibres.

Still working my way through the available data again. Should have something more definite to say in a bit - first estimate -
large calibre How rounds ~x1.5, Gun x1.75
med (75-105) calibre How rounds x1.6, Gun x2
med (50-75) calibre How rounds x1.7, Gun x2.5
med (30-50) calibre How rounds x1.6, Gun x3.5
SA & Light Cannon x3
Mortar x1.25

German packaging, in common with mountain and airborne forces that rely on horse/man portage is more minimal... the bulk of the increment is in the case/propellant so changes are minimal, but you might want to consider dropping the multiplier by 0.2 for the medium calibre rounds, perhaps a little more for small cans. Small arms is fairly 'fixed' at x3 though for HV ammunition - belted a little higher, but clip/loose is mostly just a matter of increased bulk. LV may be x2 or thereabouts.

For 'Gun' weapons where the case is fixed, use an average weight of max and current for that case when calculating packed weights - while a APDS projectile is half the weight of an APCBC projectile (roughly), the packed weights are 3/4. The same principle applies to light weight HL or HE rounds.

Note that in the data some APCR types have extreme projectile/complete round weight ratios - sPzB41 is over 6.7 in APCNR configuration, and still 4.8 in the 'low' velocity HECNR.

You realise that at a stroke we may have roughly halved the logistic effort available [:D]
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simovitch
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RE: Question on Estab values

Post by simovitch »

ORIGINAL: Lieste

You realise that at a stroke we may have roughly halved the logistic effort available [:D]
Which is why I'm loathe to increase it too much. It would not be worth it to throw all the scenarios out of whack just to add a bit of accurate minutiae to an already abstracted process.
simovitch

Lieste
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RE: Question on Estab values

Post by Lieste »

It won't impact stocks as they are currently done - they are a % of requirement.
It will reduce the ability to move stocks about, which will impact availability of artillery (mostly)

Agreed that all is abstracted at present, but given the nature of the abstraction these changes will have a limited effect - a higher reliance on slow ROF, lower tempo of firing missions... and huge changes actually have little effect on operations of medium/short duration. The common technique of firing artillery at everything, all the time, and routinely using rapid fire to boost 'strength' probably aren't considered desirable or are intended.

The most important ones to get right-ish are 10.5cm/105mm How and 15cm/155mm How, as these are the most common Divisional types with large ammunition weights and usages due to longish range and no LOS requirement.

I'd still like to see quantities in the chain limited by types - so a 155mm How can only draw on the rounds supplied for that weapon (as currently calculated as a weight requirement), but not convert the rounds meant for 81mm Mortars, 75mm tank guns etc. As I understand this is done at the point of supply to a base (when weight requirement is calculated), and within an end-user, it is only the depot stocks on hand that have no limitation/control.

One method of control would be to allocate the ammunition to each battery, but to be able to re-pool unused allocations (if a unit is dead/OOS, or if allocation is uneven).

eg
10.5cm Battery 1: 24 rpg on limber/tow/at gun, 64 rpg in unit, 116 rpg in Art Rgt Trains, 101 rpg in Div Trains.
10.5cm Battery 2: (lost guns & limbers): 0 rounds on guns, 256 rounds in unit wagons, 464 rounds in Art Rgt Train, 404 rounds in Div Trains.

Without any shipment 'up' the channel, the 868 rounds in allocations would be released to units low on ammunition, or to free supply payload for other materials coming 'down' by being re-pooled and allocated as required to Battery 1. The 256 rounds within the battery could be merged into Battery 1, added to either Rgt or Div Train with their transport or abandoned, according to situation - alternatively, if replacement equipment was a future possibility it could be retained and used when there were new gun(s) in the battery.
There are also good reasons for breaking down the unit allocation in this way - while a gun can be brought into action in just a few minutes or less, (even for non SP weapons), the amount of ready ammunition is usually poor (even more so for SP, usually). Additional deployment time allows the gun(s) to use unit supply (either SP ammunition carriers, or Ammunition Wagons/Trucks etc dumping rounds at the battery) - for pre-planned fires it might actually be the reserve ammunition that is fired first - the battery receives dumped ammunition from Rgt and Div, firing this dumped ammunition rather than limber or unit wagon supply.

The only thing I can think of with reduced ammunition is that more frequently an attack (or a defense) will need supply while it is ongoing - currently the supply losses are guaranteed where fire against motorised troops is totally ineffective (though this might have as much to do with inability of organic trucks to take losses compared to armoured vehicles) - this could perhaps be looked at - maybe delay or 'cut-off' supply without loss more often, particularly on the return trip when the only threats are engaging the main unit(s)...
Also supply runs are prohibited, even when the supply depot cannot see the threat, the supply unit is touching the 'recipient' which can see threats, more often than seems reasonable given the efforts made by the supply troops (and units themselves)


Lieste
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:50 am

RE: Question on Estab values

Post by Lieste »

Just for reference, the fuel capacity is in litres. The Estab tab within the runtime reports weight in kg.

A 1375 litre fuel capacity, reports 1032 'fuel' on the supply pane which equates to 0.75kg/litre. Fuel capacities within the supply side seem to be weight based (consistent with ammunition), with those on vehicle/combat units volume based (consistent with engine usage rates).

This doesn't matter at all, as it is consistent, but it is nice to know what the values reported are.
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