Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front!

[Oleg Mastruko]

T-34 is a medium tank, so if a unit needs medium tanks as per its TOE it will use captured T-34s if available. Tiger is a heavy tank, obviously there are no units that require that many heavy tanks as per their TOE, or they don't require that particular model.

If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool.

I too think some posters are making mountain of a molehill. Production system in this game is not there to be tweaked or scrutinized in this manner, TOE and OOB take precedence, so if there is not enough units to use X, you will see X sitting in the pool unused, rather than TOE/OOB changed.

The only way around this would be to give the player ability to build his own units, ie to change TOE/OOB as he sees fit. Germans can't build new units by design and I don't believe it will change. Soviets can build new units, but even they cannot change TOE.

[Great_Ajax]

No, those pools are specifically for the Eastern Front and Jim would have to give you the specifics on the production model. My point is that it is difficult to first of all figure out exactly how many units of x went to Russia. Anybody have the exact number of 105mm Howitzers or the number of Bf-109G6s that were sent to Russia as replacements during the entire war? We know about how many total were produced during the war and then we have to strip out the number of units were shipped with reinforcing units and thus leaving us with a rough number of units that were shipped as replacements. Then we say that x % were shipped East and then we average that number over the number of months of the conflict. This doesn't model any production that increases or decreases over time as it is just an average so it would be a lofty goal to make a production model that is dynamic enough to model the complexities of historical production. Not being defensive here but production is a tough one and compromises were made to make a game. There is so much information that is hard to obtain that you end up making educated guesses. Try figuring out the German manpower situation in 1941. Thats a fun on too.

Trey

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

I think it can be simplified. This is one of those situations where there's no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

On average about 60-80% of all resources went to the east front. However, el hefe, I disgree with you statement as I don't believe any items in the 'pool' are there waiting to be distributed between different fronts (east, west, etc). Are not these pool #'s are specifically for the eastern front???

If we can establish this fact, I think we can both agree it's implausible for WitE to ever build up a pool of 200 tigers that are already slated for deployment to the eastern front. Let's not take the approach here that the game is always right and we need to figure out how to explain away these finding. Let's all please be objective and as such we'll be considerate to the players of WitE. I found that some of the testers and 'helper' devs/coders can be a bit too defensive and less objective at times. Which understandable to occur.


[:)]

[molchomor]

Just to add what is obvious to anyone who's been playing SF/WiR before - the production screen behavior is identical to these games and also in looks. What I'm boldly implying is that the core logic for this part is still the same some 25 years after SF. There is nothing wrong at all with this except that there was a reason the player was allowed to optionally micromanage more things back then. At least the option to change plane types used by units semi-survived. Not that it matters much with the current state of the airwar (ever seen a tank kill by a Ju-87G in a bomb-unit run made by you?) but nice to have anyway

So, these tiger/105mill/whatever issues will keep popping up.

[marty_01]

I personally don't want to micro manage -- or even macro manage production and like that I dont have to be bothered. There is enough game managment issues to keep me occupied. But that's just me.

Having said that, I am curious about the glut of Tiger Tanks. Not cause I go gaw-gaw about the Tiger. It's a large unreliable hog -- IMHO [:D]. But it's an easy item to track in terms of historical production figures, availability, historical losses etc.

What is it we are seeing with the German force pool image posted above? Is this supposed to represent Tiger-1 availability on all German fronts. Med -- NW-Europe and Russia as well as training facilities and units in the process of being formed? I'm thinking in terms of: I think the 2by3 designer folks are working toward this game system eventually covering all of Europe. Does the WiTE German Force pool actually represent assets deployed in German Army, SS and training units as a whole. Or is the WiTE German force pool strictly stuff that can potentially be employed or deployed on the Eastern Front?

Just curious.

EDIT: Never mind. I see the answer to my question was posted while I was typying my question.

[molchomor]

The pools in the game are only for the East front as stated above.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

T-34 is a medium tank, so if a unit needs medium tanks as per its TOE it will use captured T-34s if available. Tiger is a heavy tank, obviously there are no units that require that many heavy tanks as per their TOE, or they don't require that particular model.

If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool.

I too think some posters are making mountain of a molehill. Production system in this game is not there to be tweaked or scrutinized in this manner, TOE and OOB take precedence, so if there is not enough units to use X, you will see X sitting in the pool unused, rather than TOE/OOB changed.

The only way around this would be to give the player ability to build his own units, ie to change TOE/OOB as he sees fit. Germans can't build new units by design and I don't believe it will change. Soviets can build new units, but even they cannot change TOE.

Sorry but what the heck are you talking about? I think you have no idea about what is being discussed. And your explanation of

"If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool."

Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?


No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. Why? Because it just never happened unless maybe we're talking about the United States or late Soviet production in 45. Germany definitely never had the luxury to warehouse hundreds of tanks between 41-45. If somebody can argue this point, then maybe the game is fine as is... good luck doing that.

If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Hehe, I think it is funny that everyone is so jazzed up about Tigers.

ZOMG! Tigers! (fwapfwapfwap) Me Tigers are sitting there not being used! Get a rope!

Find the units that use Tigers, and commit them to some fighting. Problem solved.

No need to make fundamental changes to the game in order to deal with trivial issues like this - assuming it isn't simply a bug.

Well some of us bought this game for a realistic feel for WW2 eastern front.

Yes, clearly if someone doesn't agree with you, then that must be because they DON'T want a "realistic feel for WW2 eastern front". That can be the only possible explanation.

But really - you don't want that anyway. I can assure you that sitting in front of your PC is no way to get a "realistic feel for WW2 eastern front" no matter what PanzerTigerUbertanken tweaking a PC game gives you.

If you're of the opinion that it's 'no big deal' for 200 Tigers or whatever tanks to be sitting around in some abstract 'pool',

I don't feel it is any big deal because nobody has made a case that it is a big deal, beyond fanboism. Funny that nobody is mortally offended that their Kampfgrupwagen is not properly represented, or their PZ35t. But God Forbid the vaunted Tiger does not get used properly! Of course, we don't even know that it is NOT being used properly.

Someone might say, for example "Holy PanzerStruppen Hans! Why are you letting the UberTankenPanzerenTigers sit there in your force pool! Get those tanks into your front line units and kill some Bolshevists with them already!"

I guess you're not one of these people. Or maybe you just don't understand that the 'tank' was too valuable of a commodity during WW2 to be sitting around collecting dusts.

I guess I am not nearly the expert that some are in "realistic WW2 eastern front". I am just a guy who plays wargames, sadly. I bow to your superior experience with "realistic WW2 eastern front". How is the frostbite coming along, btw?

But thanks for chirping in with you opinion...

Anytime, I am here to help!

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. Why? Because it just never happened.

Should the game force the players to not do other things that "just never happened", like letting the Soviets retreat out of pockets in 1941, or allowing the Germans to take Moscow?

If there are a bunch of Tigers sitting in the pool, there are 2 possible explanations:

1. There is a bug, and units that need Tigers are not getting them for some reason, or

2. The player is not using the units that have Tigers in the TOE, and hence there is no need for their replacement, hence they are sitting in the pool waiting to be replaced.

Maybe this is smart play by the player - maybe he is hoarding his Tigers for some sustained offensive. Why assume there is anything wrong without more information?

This is War in the East. Not Sim Eastern Front Economy. The game has plenty enough micro-management, more is not at all needed.

I would MUCH rather see development cycles spent to make the scenario generation more interesting than indulging people in creating fantasy TO&Es for their favorite Uber divisions.

[Great_Ajax]

Let me break it down this way ...

All production is averaged per month over the life cycle of that piece of equipment so it doesn't matter if its August 1942 or August 1944, a piece of equipment will generate exactly the same number of units each month.

What does this mean for our Tigers for example. Lets just say that the average monthly Tiger production for our game is 50 Tigers/month and this what the game pumps out each month as replacements into our pool. The first couple of Tiger battalions got sent East in late 1942 and their TO&E allows for around 30 Tigers each (off the top of my head) but the game continues to churn out 50 Tigers a month regardless of how many battalions are in the East. During this time period the player is probably accumulating extra Tigers into his pool. In the later year this has an opposite effect when you have a high number of Tiger battalions deployed in the East but your production is still the same so you are going to start drawing more from that excess pool.

So the bottom line is that with average monthly production you will see a pool accumulate early and then the pool should drain out over time. Over the long term you should have an appropriate amount of units.

Trey

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Let me break it down this way ...

All production is averaged per month over the life cycle of that piece of equipment so it doesn't matter if its August 1942 or August 1944, a piece of equipment will generate exactly the same number of units each month.

What does this mean for our Tigers for example. Lets just say that the average monthly Tiger production for our game is 50 Tigers/month and this what the game pumps out each month as replacements into our pool. The first couple of Tiger battalions got sent East in late 1942 and their TO&E allows for around 30 Tigers each (off the top of my head) but the game continues to churn out 50 Tigers a month regardless of how many battalions are in the East. During this time period the player is probably accumulating extra Tigers into his pool. In the later year this has an opposite effect when you have a high number of Tiger battalions deployed in the East but your production is still the same so you are going to start drawing more from that excess pool.

So the bottom line is that with average monthly production you will see a pool accumulate early and then the pool should drain out over time. Over the long term you should have an appropriate amount of units.

Trey

ZOMG THAT IS SO UNREALISTIC!!!

Thanks for the explanation Trey.

[abulbulian]

OMG here we go again.

Berkut, it's nothing to do about 'fanboyism'. My opinion is that this situation of masses of tanks or planes not being utilized for either the Axis or Soviet player would be a problem.

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

That was my experience months ago when I tried to prove that blizzard conditions were unrealistic. Just happens that v1.04 proved I was on to something and yes I'll say 'I told you so'. No surprise that it's some of the same people again trying to say.. 'no problems...don't change anything'.

Just please be accountable and state your case as to why you think pools of tanks are acceptable. Don't just say.. it's ok and it's as designed. There have been things as designed in many cases that have not been correct... it does happebn.

[jzardos]

Although I was not part of the forum at the time, I do remember reading those posts that got a bit heated. There are those people that just have to argue to argue, maybe they have nothing better to do. It's ok to be loyal to a product, but some people are so blinded by WitE or kissing ass too much to be objective when some real issues seem to pop up. Personally I think the forum is a place to discuss these issue and NOT just DISMISS them as some of you just want to do so quickly.

I will look in some books tonight and see how realistic it would have been for maybe not enough tank crews around and thus Germany maybe could get a surplus of these newer tanks. This maybe be a much harder fact to locate in one night.

But if that is the case that trained tank crews were in short supply, then I think we don't have any issue and WitE is properly representing the realism of the time.

[marty_01]

Out of more curiosity -- but is the force pool image showing the glut of Tigers in pool from a solitaire game?  What is the context of this equipment detailing figure?  I'd imagine if I was in a 42 to 43 game as the Germans I'd be moving my Hvy Tiger Battalions around so much that there would be a large number of Tigers in the breakdowns or damaged column of the equipment read out. 

[Lrfss]

Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned [8|]

In particular since we cannot modify production itself in any way!

I would guess if someone took a poll around here, it would read by a huge percentage in favor of doing all three items indicated above! Of course if done, it should be so if you chose not to manage these items that could be controlled by the AI as well...

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?

Well take a guess... it's neither. It's how the game works, and you can be as rude as you want about it, it won't change a thing, unless devs decide to change the basic design which at this point is very unlikely to happen. Posting stuff like the quote above will only make *you* look stupid. I personally don't care....

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

In real world those tanks "collected and not utilized" (I guess unitized is a typo) were probably utilized, used, and spent through combat. If you don't use them, and you don't spend them through combat - guess what? They will pile up in the pool, becuase this game is TOE based. TOE is god, and TOE won't change just because you have X of Y in the pool. That's just how the game works, and it's pretty obvious....

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.

Of course in an ideal world with flexible TOE's and production/upgrades etc you could of course claim this was NOT WAD but that is not the case for WitE as has been designed and is known.

[PyleDriver]

Don't get frustrated guys. I brought up the tiger issue in testing, I wasn't sure either. Once agian this is a vast game, with many complex issues. Bring things up to Joel, he has the best ear and is willing to change things as needed to make it more historical.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?

Well take a guess... it's neither. It's how the game works, and you can be as rude as you want about it, it won't change a thing, unless devs decide to change the basic design which at this point is very unlikely to happen. Posting stuff like the quote above will only make *you* look stupid. I personally don't care....

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

In real world those tanks "collected and not utilized" (I guess unitized is a typo) were probably utilized, used, and spent through combat. If you don't use them, and you don't spend them through combat - guess what? They will pile up in the pool, becuase this game is TOE based. TOE is god, and TOE won't change just because you have X of Y in the pool. That's just how the game works, and it's pretty obvious....

They could always commit the units to combat turn after turn. That will shrink the pool.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.

Very true. Doesn't stop the whiners though.

[Wild]

So true Aurelian.
Trey has already explained it's WAD and why. Which by the way is quite logical and understandable.
Unfortunately judging from past experience on this forum, logic will fail to get through to people who believe they know everything about the eastern front. They think everything should be done their way or the whole game is broken.