Lots of tanks, no men

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Yes, I see what you mean ComP. Still, although very minor, it is still less than satisfactory in a game that aims to model down to individual trucks, rifles and men. The squad and the halftrack attack, and are attacked as one. They are damaged as one, treated as some kind of centaur, the body of a halftrack, and the head of nine panzer grenadiers.

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  

The squad also has an armor rating.

Brad

[squatter]

So they do - front and side armour of 1. Normal infantry are 0. Yet a normal German halftrack is 14 and 10.
 
It would appear the panzer grenadiers have flak jackets.
 
For the purist, this needs fixing.
 
 

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: squatter

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  

If you look closely at the TOEs, it actually fits exactly with reality. All Panzer and PzG Divisions in all TOEs have most of their infantry as "Motorized Rifle Squad" for the entire war. The mix changes within the Divisions, as there are also some "Panzer Grenadier Squads"; these are halftrack mounted.

There are NO units, not even the SS Panzer Divisions, that have only PzG Rifle squads, and not Motorized Rifle Squads.

It is true that all "Panzer Grenadier" units in the game are halftrack mounted, but most of what the Germans IRL called "Panzergrenadiers" are actually in-game called "Motorized Rifle Squads", because most "Panzer Grenadiers" were in reality Truck-Mounted.

[squatter]

Okay, but the central point is that the half-tracks in which these grenadiers are mounted are not modelled, unlike every other vehicle that took part in the war. Other than the fact the troops have extra MGs, men, and flak jackets(!).
 
The infantry squad and the vehicle they travel in should be modelled seperately, should they not?

[Tarhunnas]

Hmm, this is interesting. Now I know why there are so few 251/1 around. I always wondered, but never dared to ask...

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Yes, I see what you mean ComP. Still, although very minor, it is still less than satisfactory in a game that aims to model down to individual trucks, rifles and men. The squad and the halftrack attack, and are attacked as one. They are damaged as one, treated as some kind of centaur, the body of a halftrack, and the head of nine panzer grenadiers.

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  

+1, agreed [;)]

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Okay, but the central point is that the half-tracks in which these grenadiers are mounted are not modelled, unlike every other vehicle that took part in the war. Other than the fact the troops have extra MGs, men, and flak jackets(!).

The infantry squad and the vehicle they travel in should be modelled seperately, should they not?

Why? Seems like a reasonable abstraction since it is organic transport.

The game doesn't model every individual thing. It models divisions in detail. Below that, everything is an 'entity' that can be put into a division, no matter what it actually contains. If we accept your assertion, then the game should model tank crews separately too. That level of detail would simply add nothing to the game.

[Berkut]

Wait a minute - are you telling me the game does NOT model tank crews separately????

Someone get a rope.

[bevans]

I appreciate this discussion as it was not clear (and still isn't totally clear, at least to me, to be honest) how these come into the game. In my modded version of the GC, I added production capacity for the halftracks (yes, they are manufactured/part of the German production system) in order to allow the conversion of more of the motorized infantry squads to PG squads over time (never 100%, even in GD or SS pz/PG divs). The number of halftracks vs PG squads in the standard TOEs is not a linear relationship so I just made a best guess at how many extra halftracks were needed to convert extra squads/companies to halftracks. Have just hit the (modded) '42 TOE conversion points for motorized and Pz divisions and I have a huge surplus waiting for the TOE change to kick in. I have a feeling I have vastly overestimated the number required, possibly because of the way the game seems to be modelling them. We'll see; suspect if I got it wrong there is no game mechanism to make some sort of use of the extra halftracks I will have wasted production capacity on.

[squatter]

[/quote]

Why? Seems like a reasonable abstraction since it is organic transport.

The game doesn't model every individual thing. It models divisions in detail. Below that, everything is an 'entity' that can be put into a division, no matter what it actually contains. If we accept your assertion, then the game should model tank crews separately too. That level of detail would simply add nothing to the game.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, I dont follow your logic, and I'm not asserting seperate tank crews.

Now, as the manual says: "Combat is conducted through an automated tactical system that models the action down to the individual aircraft, Armoured Fighting Vehicle, and infantry squad."

Can we at least agree that the game sets out to model every AFV, then? We're not going to get far without that.

Good, so we agree that the game aims to model every AFV that fought in the war in the east, yes? That's why all those tanks have got individual names and data.

But hang on, there's one exception to this: the german panzer grenadier halftracks. All the other halftracks are in there - the mortar ones, the flak ones, all of them - except the ones that carried the panzergrenadiers into battle.

Instead, the crew and weapons of these halftracks are thrown in with the rest of the panzer grenadier squad, all fighting as one.

Now, if it was the case that the German panzergrenadiers sat in their halftracks during battle, firing over the sides at the enemy, then perhaps this approach would have some merit. But sadly, as we all know, the germans would dismount from thir halftracks, and infantry and vehicle would fight seperately.

A game that models literally every single other AFV individually, yet doesnt model these halftracks. I'm saying that's odd.

In WitE as it stands, the troops sit in the halftracks during the fight.

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: bevans

I appreciate this discussion as it was not clear (and still isn't totally clear, at least to me, to be honest) how these come into the game. In my modded version of the GC, I added production capacity for the halftracks (yes, they are manufactured/part of the German production system) in order to allow the conversion of more of the motorized infantry squads to PG squads over time (never 100%, even in GD or SS pz/PG divs). The number of halftracks vs PG squads in the standard TOEs is not a linear relationship so I just made a best guess at how many extra halftracks were needed to convert extra squads/companies to halftracks. Have just hit the (modded) '42 TOE conversion points for motorized and Pz divisions and I have a huge surplus waiting for the TOE change to kick in. I have a feeling I have vastly overestimated the number required, possibly because of the way the game seems to be modelling them. We'll see; suspect if I got it wrong there is no game mechanism to make some sort of use of the extra halftracks I will have wasted production capacity on.

Yes, your thinking was perfectly reasonable as halftracks of the same model are built, but not for use with panzergrenadier squads.

It does seem the panzergrenadier squads are built from a combination of manpower and armament points, and dont require the manufacture of a vehicle.

[Tarhunnas]

I would say I am comfortable with the abstraction too, although of course it would have been nice to have them modelled separately, but you cannot have everything in a game, and I am not sure it would make enough difference to matter.

I note that the debate is a bit Germano-centric here. I assume the same applies to Soviet mechanised units with lend lease halftracks, so at least it would be equal for both sides.

[squatter]

Hey, I don't really give a monkeys about the abstraction either.
 
I'm just saying it's there, and it's inconsistent, is all.

[Berkut]

I think in WitE the troops and the tracks are modeled as a unit, that does not mean they are sitting in the tracks. It doesn't really mean anything, since they aren't actually fighting, and there aren't any actual troops. The entire thing is abstracted, even if much less so than many other games. Don't get too caught up in "what does this abstraction *really* mean???". It probably doesn't mean much of anything.

IIRC, the tracks themselves were not intended to actually fight - they were armored transport, not IFVs.

[ComradeP]

But hang on, there's one exception to this: the german panzer grenadier halftracks. All the other halftracks are in there - the mortar ones, the flak ones, all of them - except the ones that carried the panzergrenadiers into battle.

Initially, halftracks were just armoured taxi's, it took the Germans several years themselves to realize that the halftracks were also a weapon.

I still don't get your point, though.

Does WitE have individual transport vehicles modelled? Nope, it has a "vehicles" pool.
Yet it's a problem if PzG squads don't also literally include a halftrack (how, exactly would that be modelled with the current code considering that none of the elements supposedly using some form of transport actually include the transport in their statistics)?

WitE abstracts. Adding one single type of halftrack in a way that's problematic to code would only cause people to ask for adding every single kind of vehicles (let's be realistic, you know people will do that), which will ruin the current level of abstraction.

If you want to worry about every single vehicle type (and you either want to do that, or you can live with the current abstraction, as it would be rather odd if you'd say "well, I only want German halftracks to be individually modelled but nothing else"), WitE is not a game that offers you that option. Personally, I'm very happy that I don't have to worry about hundreds of different types of vehicles aside from all the other decisions that need to be made.

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

But hang on, there's one exception to this: the german panzer grenadier halftracks. All the other halftracks are in there - the mortar ones, the flak ones, all of them - except the ones that carried the panzergrenadiers into battle.

Initially, halftracks were just armoured taxi's, it took the Germans several years themselves to realize that the halftracks were also a weapon.

Did they ever really though?

A halftrack is a ridiculously vulnerable vehicle in combat. I mean, obviously it is much better protection than a truck, but even at that pretty much *any* AT weapons of any kind is going to make mincemeat of it. Even an AT rifle. And the bloody things are rather expensive to produce compared to a truck.

I've always been of the understanding that both US and German doctrine was that halftracks were used to move the infantry into combat, keep up with the tanks across similar terrain, but not intended really to be used in direct combat itself.

[squatter]

"I still don't get your point, though."

Okay, I'll try again.

Forget everything about transport - I am only interested in combat for the purposes of this discussion.

WitE models every AFV in the war. It gives them armour values for front rear and top, specific weapons, reliability rates and even specific factories that build the machines.

Combat is resolved in such a way that involves individual tanks and AFVs firing at each other, with results depending on armour values and weapon penetration values, etc. It does this for every vehicle you can imagine, including non-front line flak trucks. Anything that could fight, is modelled. Anything, and everything.

Except the half tracks.

Instead, these are represented by giving the infantry squad a couple more machine guns, three more men, an armour value as if they were a vehicle, and even a reliability rating, as if they were a vehicle. The combat strengths of both the AFV and the infantry are combined into a mutant half infantry/half AFV ground element.

I am saying this is inconsistent, you are disagreeing.

Name me one other element in which this is also the case?

"WitE abstracts. Adding one single type of halftrack in a way that's problematic to code would only cause people to ask for adding every single kind of vehicles (let's be realistic, you know people will do that), which will ruin the current level of abstraction."

Yes, we all know that all games abstract at some level. But one of the USPs of WitE is that NO AFVs ARE ABSTRACTED. EVERY SINGLE ONE IS MODELED IN DETAIL. That is a claim of the game. Which as far as I know holds true, but for this one inconsistency.

"If you want to worry about every single vehicle type (and you either want to do that, or you can live with the current abstraction, as it would be rather odd if you'd say "well, I only want German halftracks to be individually modelled but nothing else"), WitE is not a game that offers you that option. Personally, I'm very happy that I don't have to worry about hundreds of different types of vehicles aside from all the other decisions that need to be made."

What other AFVs could anyone else possibly want to include that arent already included? AFAIK they are all in there. Again, that's one of the game's USPs. And in any case, the model of half track in question is already in the game, only not if it happens to also be used to transport an infantry squad. By this logic, what about T34s that were used to carry infantry on top? Should these be amalgamated into hybrid Soviet tank/infantry elements?

You mention code problems: no doubt this is the reason this inconsistency exists. All that I'm saying is that it is an inconsistency, not that all trees should be pulled up, even at the cost of wrecking the code, to solve it.

[Mynok]

Halftracks aren't AFVs. They are transport....armed, true, but transport nonetheless. Some of them got turned into fighting vehicles by mounting heavy weaponry on them. Those are modeled. I think that's the difference in reasoning.

[Berkut]

And WitE certainly does NOT model every single AFV in the war. Not by a long shot, I suspect.

And plenty of that modelling is abstracted. Does it really model every single variant of PzIV, for example? I rather doubt it. The number of variants within even specifc models were significant.

Name me one other element in which this is also the case?

A squad of soldiers. You know, it isn't really one "thing". It is actually a bunch of different things. And those things don't all get destroyed or damaged as a group in real life. A squad of soldiers isn't really a 9-headed monster that holds 8 rifles and 2 machine guns, along with sundy panzerfausts, AT rifles, grenades, bayonets, shovels, sticks, and anything else you can think of that men in WW2 used to try to kill one another.

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Halftracks aren't AFVs. They are transport....armed, true, but transport nonetheless. Some of them got turned into fighting vehicles by mounting heavy weaponry on them. Those are modeled. I think that's the difference in reasoning.

I could be wrong, however every book I've ever read which there have been many on the subject considered Halftracks to be AFV's...

Additionally, IIRC all the games I've seen considered H-Tracks to be AFV's as well... IIRC take a look at the old war horse AH titles, SL & ASL I'm about 99% sure they considerd H-Tracks as AFV's. If they were around today in the same config more or less they would be called IFV's of course.

That is regardless whether or not the Forward Mtd 34/42 was in place or the optional Rear Pintle Mtd 34/42.

This reminds me, is the Flamm Thrower H-Track version in WitE, if not I cry foul and demand it's added in the next patch...please[8D]