Early war strategy for Allies

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I am playing both sides and would have to say that it has helped me become a better player.

> ny59giants - while I do not have the sheer game time and experience that you do, I have spent considerable time and thought on the initial Japanese set up and resource shipping requirements. Now, as the Allied Player, this knowledge does indeed given me a clearer understand of the forces, opening moves and burden of attack that my Japanese opponent faces.

In China, I learned not to defend in clear terrain. My troops got killed there.

> Your advice is taken to heart and will be implemented soonest.

In Luzon, slowing falling back to Clark and lastly at Bataan is the best way to go IMO. I try to save at least a fragment of each of the 6 USA BFs to be rebuilt as they will help in the long run. Your fighters don't last long, so use them will you can.

> ny59giants, this is something that I should have started earlier; possibly doable - Clark is holding, Manila still clear; but an earlier attempt to remove the Cavitie Naval Base Force by AP ended with the loss of the AP and LCU. Do you use Submarine evacuation; or surface ship early on?

In Malaya, if your playing a non-historical 1st turn, then you may be in trouble if your opponent has learned to conduct the Mersing Gambit successfully. I did so as Japan and took Singapore on 31 Dec 41. A steady retreat down the peninsula is your best bet if you are allowed to do so. Your Vildebeest are your best weapon here and I send them on hit and run attacks across the SRA even if they don't have torpedoes.

> Am setting up a "Fortress Singapore" as the Japanese advance down the peninsula. Air units resting to build morale, will use the above advice to good effect (or at least that's the plan!).

The Dutch have a tough choice. Fortress Java has been tried, but it is difficult to do. The current flavor is to fortify Palembang to increase the chance of having high damage done to the most important economic asset that Japan has to grab.

> Then, perhaps, this is an option to consider.

I find myself trying to delay as much as possible, but there are a few units (mostly BF and large Aviation units) that I want to save for later use. As Allies, I never have enough Aviation Support.

> This is the strategy that I am trying to implement. Still have much to learn..

It is hard not to do a partial "Sir Robin" as you cannot leave too much forward and have a KB escorted invasion by pass what you have and just come back at a later time. Add in the number of players using Scenario 2 with non-historical 1st turn and an Allied player is hard pressed to not want to run and hide for better times.

Just my $.025 cents (inflation!!)

ny59giants -

Good stuff, really helps to read what the Big Boys do - for all us minnow wanna be's.... <grin>

Thank You, Sir!

Mac

[topeverest]

You give me far too much credit.

There are some very, very crafty Allied (and Empire) artists out there. Trust me when I tell you I am not one of them. If there are 10 important keys to victory on either side, I probably know how to purposefully execute three or four at most.

good luck

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Consider an alternate MLR. The Japanese have a pretty harsh timetable for where they have to be with what, when. They are prepping troops for these locations from the first day of hostilities. The sudden discovery of a new MLR on a different island or a different terrain type will always be an unwelcome finding, as their siege will have to start from scratch. They can't afford the temporal distraction of being surprised in this manner.

So, as a Japanese player, finding a huge combined force of engineers and infantry at Palembang is always unwelcome. A buttressed Java would suck too and throw a significant spanner in the works. In one of my current PBEMs, the Allies are making Darwin into a large defensive fortress, making life difficult for Japanese hegemony in the area. Now we've got to figure a way around this defense-which takes time.

Also concur on the surprise attacks into rear areas with shipping. Just be sure you know where the main KB is before doing so. It's an Allied gamble. Like gambling-don't bet anything that you can't afford to lose.

+1

Playing mostly as IJ, this is the most important thing: don't be predictable early on. As Chickboy states, the IJ player has a timetable and it is REALLY tight. Forcing the IJ player to recon every landing and potentially adjust forces can wreck that timetable. For example; the Fortress Palembang gambit can really screw up an IJ player if he doesn't recognize it soon enough.

IMHO the game is fundamentally about time: as the allies you are trying to buy time into '43 with intact forces. As IJ, you are trying to get the allies piece meal so that '43 is still a year of parity. If the allied offensive can't start until '44, IJ has a good chance to last through '45.

[USSAmerica]

topeverest, a question, if you don't mind.&nbsp; Are the results you describe above with your subs using historical torpedoes?&nbsp; The bulk of the Allied subs in '42 carry Mk-14's with their 80% dud rate.&nbsp; The S-boats and Dutch/Brit subs can be very effective early on, but just how effective can a sub patrol near the Home Islands be when it might be carrying 4 or so torpedoes that will actually explode? If you're sinking an average of 30 ships/month in a merchant campaign, with historically "inaccurate" torpedoes, then I'm extremely impressed!&nbsp;[&o]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: USS America

topeverest, a question, if you don't mind.  Are the results you describe above with your subs using historical torpedoes?  The bulk of the Allied subs in '42 carry Mk-14's with their 80% dud rate.  The S-boats and Dutch/Brit subs can be very effective early on, but just how effective can a sub patrol near the Home Islands be when it might be carrying 4 or so torpedoes that will actually explode? If you're sinking an average of 30 ships/month in a merchant campaign, with historically "inaccurate" torpedoes, then I'm extremely impressed! [&o]

The secret to getting good Allied sub performance in 1942 is to patrol where Allied patrol/float planes operate. If you can still project Allied naval air searches into the South China, Java, Philippine Seas, then you have bases close enough to operate S-class + Brit/Dutch subs in those areas to attack air spotted enemy ships.

Alfred

[GaryChildress]

As far as the DEI is concerned, without as much threat from the pesky Japanese medium bombers armed with torps, is it easier now to reinforce Singapore? Also are people better able to move more resources and oil out of DEI to Australia in the initial part of the game?

[topeverest]

Mike,

Really, this isnt brilliance, just thoroughness, and I sincerely doubt I am describing the best approach. i do believe, however, it is a good approach. Let me just say that subs (on both sides) are dramatic weapons in this game. Keep in mind the Americans alone sunk over 1100 empire ships by sub in WWII, including ~140 ships through dec 31, 1942.

BTW, It is historical torpedoes I always use. They key for me is in the dedicated deployment in the key choke and receiving / sending zones. You want to minimize distance to sub base to maimize length of patrol. I use 'patrol around target' and choose hexes. I overflow the most likely zones (more than one sub patrols certain hexes) and ensure the patrol zone itself is more than one hex. I dont abort them until they automatically return for fuel...but I will abort for torp ammo or damage above 20.

I dont get 30 every month by sub thru April, but at least 20. Dont underestimate the value of pulsing the Manila subs to the Yellow sea / Formosa area right at the start. By summer 42, the total comes up and stays up. It is a constant game of shift and countershift dictated by the empires changing of routes becasue the losses have been too painful and you upgrade timing. If you figure you want to set a goal of 1 sunk cargo type per 30 days of single sub patrol and you can keep a net of about half of your force in action, given the time to and from patrol and repair times / losses, WITH 30 net subs on duty at all times growing to 60+ by years end...the expected losses by subs should be no less than 150 merchnat vessals in 1942, taking into account the gamesmanship and other variables that occur during the game. Over 200 is expected if you put any effort into it. I think we all know what that does to the empire. More than this can be done to be sure if you dedicate yourself to it, tracking the success of the zones with every sinking and contact and adjusting accordingly. If you are following it closely, you might even break into the rythem of the convoys and really see some magic for a time.

furthermore, in 43+ when you can put 60 out at once (and then even more) and have active torpedoes, you will double your effectiveness. By late summer 43, the empire will be seriously constricted and short of cargos. You will start sinking 3 to 5 ships per day for a time. Note after 42, I will pull merchant dedicated subs to flood a combat zone, as many as 30 in a 400 hex square, for a major attack. This is because they are so darn effective by that time.

Let me state again the key isnt any one brilliant attack like in CV action, it is a continuous and unavoidable flood of subs where the empire has to take her cargos.

lastly, once PI and DEI are gone I tpyically do hold back my short rangers S boats, etc, for action against combat vessals and flooding any particular combat zone as above. A dozen or so of these is more than sufficient to accomplish most missions. I never waste a long range sub on such a mission if I have a shortie.

When you have retaken Luzon and Marianas the game changes. You flood the HI's with subs such that you bag something just about everytime there is a naval or merhcant sortie. Seriously, at that stage the empire will only be getting booty from the china road, Hokkaido & Sakhalin, and Manchukuo. you will have 5 times the subs to patrol 1/5 the patrol area. The math is pretty simple there.

-------------------

I am still working on a good Empire sub strategy...their nut is much harder to decide since they have several distinct types, including the SSX's. Thier floatplane capable assets probably are wasted as a typical sub on patrol. rather, they are better suited to combined sub-surface raiding, base spotting / monitoring, and/or CV hunting. The player also has to decide if to change sub doctrine in the options at the start. Of course, not adhering to the historical doctrine is a huge force multiplier to a throrough empire player. Finally, there is the matter of the SST eligibles and what if anything to do with them at each phase of the war. I will say that putting a number of the empire SST's together can be a very meaningful supply transport mechanism where suface and fast transport missions dont work. It also is a darn good surprise invasion attack mechanism if you have the patience to load each ship individually. I dont play Empire as much; therefore, I have to more postulate on suitable war strategy by stage than rely on bonified experience, especially late war antics. But that is a topic for another post...

Hopefully this provides more context on how to execute.

[topeverest]

Gary,

IME, reinforcing Singapore is very hard to pull off against a seasoned empire player, and it has very limited rewards. You wont keep the base. As far as taking the booty from DEI to Oz, of course. You should plan to pull everything out you can. A lot depends on if the empire targets merisng or Java in the first week of the war. Palembang is very vulnerable early.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: USS America

topeverest, a question, if you don't mind.  Are the results you describe above with your subs using historical torpedoes?  The bulk of the Allied subs in '42 carry Mk-14's with their 80% dud rate.  The S-boats and Dutch/Brit subs can be very effective early on, but just how effective can a sub patrol near the Home Islands be when it might be carrying 4 or so torpedoes that will actually explode? If you're sinking an average of 30 ships/month in a merchant campaign, with historically "inaccurate" torpedoes, then I'm extremely impressed! [&o]

The secret to getting good Allied sub performance in 1942 is to patrol where Allied patrol/float planes operate. If you can still project Allied naval air searches into the South China, Java, Philippine Seas, then you have bases close enough to operate S-class + Brit/Dutch subs in those areas to attack air spotted enemy ships.

Alfred

Alfred -

Another piece of the puzzle is explained. Many thanks, Sir.

topeverest, yet more solid guidance - I am saving this page.

To all who have contributed - my thanks; turn by turn, phase by phase I am getting some serious coaching - and will continue climbing the learning curve at an accelerated rate because of it.

a Very Humbled Mac

Mac

[USSAmerica]

Thanks for the quick and detailed feedback, Andy! &nbsp;

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Mac,

The sub war is best started immediately. Your challenge is to decide if you are going to use the bulk of them in fleet or merchant roles. Without being too specific, imho, lets say the allies have about 60 subs, all but a handful of which are deployable in the first days of the war. IMHO, The goal is to sink tonnage not disrupt invasions.

The Empire has to regulaly pull booty by sea in many places. As you reduce her capacity to move this, you are winning the war. Not pretty or sexy like CV or BB combat, but of paramount importance. Some areas are more important than others. IME, deploying every available sub at the beginning towards merhants will reap rewards through lower stockpiling and asset diversion. To simplify, there are two basic strategies you can deploy to - at the pickup and drop off locations or at the choke points. Furthermore, the longer the deployment path the more chance your short range subs cannot deploy once Manila is gone (which is a good reason to hold onto a major port as long as possible.) The best choke points might be Yellow and east china seas near the southern HI ports, in and around Formosa, Near Ominato, makassar straight / celebes sea, near singapore. This is not to say other areas might not be important in any particular game.

The empire can and probably will deploy air and ship based asw assets to effectively close down at least one of these patrol zones, and smart players will vary their convoy paths as their losses mount in any one area. If you are playing against an enemy who uses the auto convoy system, you are likely to be more successful, since AC tends to use most direct paths unless otherwise ordered.

Furthermore, let me suggest that a dozen subs is more than adequate to flood a combat zone and meaninfully interdict any single set of empire amphibious actions if you are in a protracted combat in one general location...say in mid 42. You can use your reinforcements for that effort.

Otherwise, get every available sub into either choke points or delivery / pickup zones and keep them there until exhausted, out of ammo, or severely damaged. You need to spend time on this part of the war each day and you have to plan about 7-14 days in advance. It is perhaps easyiest to allocate a number of subs to be in certain patrol areas and track the number of kills by area, resetting allocations periodically based on success and damage. To extend your effective patrol times is to mulitply your force effectiveness. With that in mind...Bases in the western Aleuts are very good sub bases against the HI if nothing else is near. Once you have the Marshalls or NG, these are great locations too, along with western Oz and any base near the western DEI

lastly, do the upgrades, I maybe seeing things, but the radars seem to work wonders in the engagement rate.

By the end of 42 you will have approx 150 subs in your arsenal. That is enough to rip the heart out of the enemy's booty haul in 43, especially if you have a few forward bases to deploy from. Even if you can't advance on the surface, the subs will constrict the enemy economy so badly by mid 43 that you will have the war won before you realize it. remember, each 10% reduction in empire trasnport capacity is a corresponding (but delayed) reduction in their ability to make war and bring on new naval & air assets. Each naval and air asset you prevent from being built is one you never have to fight!!

Without betraying those who dont want to know...Ask yourself these questions to help you along. About how many empire total merhcant assets are available each year with what capacity? How many of those assets must be operating (what capcity) to fully employ the economy and from where do they run to/from? Therefore, how many ships do you need to sink to affect how much of the economy? How many subs do you need to deploy and how many sinkings per sub deployed do you need to get the effect you want by the date you want? track this and...well...there you go.

Its a very straightforward curve...for those who have decided to calculate it.


-----------

Dare I leave it there, I want to add but not talk about the fact that you want to integrate a surface raiding policy along with this.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

This will only work vs a very mediocre player. Competent Japanese play will make the Allies subs ineffective. They can and will sink ships but not in numbers to have a serious impact on the Japanese merchant force. I like to think that I am pretty good at the sub game but my opponent is pretty good too and has effectively neutered my Allied subs.

[crsutton]

It is not Sir Robin but the "rope a dope" defense. Pay attention guys, I am only going to explain this once (again) [8D]

1942, you rope a dope

[crsutton]

1943, you float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

[crsutton]

1944, you pity your fallen foe...

Its another "rumble in the jungle"

[bradfordkay]

" I dont abort them until they automatically return for fuel.."

Perhaps I make my patrol zones too large, but I have found that if I wait for my subs to return for refueling on their own, many of them run out of fuel before making it to homebase. Now I check my TFs every couple of turns or so and order those whose endurance is less than their projected time at sea to return. Doing this does cause many to return too early, but I feel that is better than allowing them to take extra damage by running out of fuel while at sea.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" I dont abort them until they automatically return for fuel.."

Perhaps I make my patrol zones too large, but I have found that if I wait for my subs to return for refueling on their own, many of them run out of fuel before making it to homebase. Now I check my TFs every couple of turns or so and order those whose endurance is less than their projected time at sea to return. Doing this does cause many to return too early, but I feel that is better than allowing them to take extra damage by running out of fuel while at sea.

That issue was addressed in a patch some time ago. I have only had one sub, damaged at that, run out of fuel on the way home in a long time.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" I dont abort them until they automatically return for fuel.."

Perhaps I make my patrol zones too large, but I have found that if I wait for my subs to return for refueling on their own, many of them run out of fuel before making it to homebase. Now I check my TFs every couple of turns or so and order those whose endurance is less than their projected time at sea to return. Doing this does cause many to return too early, but I feel that is better than allowing them to take extra damage by running out of fuel while at sea.

That issue was addressed in a patch some time ago. I have only had one sub, damaged at that, run out of fuel on the way home in a long time.

Heh... I just one one, lightly damaged, run out of fuel the other day. Maybe I'm just not trusting the program enough...

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

As far as the DEI is concerned, without as much threat from the pesky Japanese medium bombers armed with torps, is it easier now to reinforce Singapore? Also are people better able to move more resources and oil out of DEI to Australia in the initial part of the game?

Depends on your opponent. If Japanese land at Mersing on turn 1-2, or go for Palembang, or at least one of the bases south of Singapore (Singkawang or maybe Biliton) immediately, not really.

[FatR]

I'm closer to crsutton in my estimate of Allied sub effectiveness. When playing Allies, I paid a lot of attention to my subs, replacing inept commanders everywhere, building up Midway specifically for sub operations and so on. But after loss of DEI and Northern Australia (as effective bases), my results plummeted anyway, even though, AFAIK, my opponent trained his air ASW assets wrong in his game. There were two big issues (besides faulty torps):

1)Low time on patrol even when operating from Midway (and major damage often forced subs to return to Pearl). Subs spent more time enroute to patrol zones.

2)All obvious chokepoints will be choked by air patrols and ASW taskforces against a competent player, particularly when sub patrol zones are restricted by the factor #1. Even though auxilary subchasers and patrol boats have practically no hopes of sinking a USN sub in deep water, they can keep subs down and draw attacks to themselves, instead of convoys. By autumn of 1942, my subs were sinking more of these otherwise worthless pests than anything else. And with subs typically scoring single hits against them (due to launching torpedoes in pairs) and 80% dud rate, they weren't sinking many.

The key to a successful sub campaign seems to be keeping/obtaining forward bases before 1943, so by the time your torpedoes partially heal, you can ensure sufficient variety of patrol zones. Just camping approaches to Home Island doesn't work too well.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs


That issue was addressed in a patch some time ago. I have only had one sub, damaged at that, run out of fuel on the way home in a long time.

Me too. It was one of the Dutch short-legs.

I usually run out of fish before fuel.

I don't know, but is it the case that early in the war, if the home base is taken, that the code doesn't re-check every turn to see if there is a new one in range? Manila falling is the best example.

Regardless, I don't have this problem. It is possible to design a patrol zone so far away from PH that it starts out "redded out." I believe the code will allow you to send the boat out on this if you insist. I don't know if it aborts when it should, or if it tries to complete one circuit of the patrol waypoints first. That might be the source of the OP's trouble.