Map changes for historical scenarios

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps the Japanese chose to use the Kokoda trail because it is the direct trail from Buna to Port Moresby, as opposed to the trail further east through Jaure that comes to the coast at Kappa Kappa or the trail even further east through Fasari or the trail even further east that reached the PNG southern coast at Abau. Of course they could have used they trail further west at Yodda that reaches the PNG coast NW of Pt. Moresby.

Or perhaps when they got to Kokoda they could have turned NW or SE and used the trail running along the Owen Stanley range that passes through Yodda to Kokoda to Jaure to Fasari.


If anything you might want to add a dotbase for Kokoda, Jaure and/or Fasari.



[quote]ORIGINAL: el cid again

You are of course correct. See RHS. I indeed think any hex with an airfield - or even a potential airfield that really was developed - should be a location in these remote places. I think the Kappa Kappa Trail matters - the Allies used it more than the Kokota Trail - and there is indeed a connection along the Owen Stanley line that belongs in play. What matters is the vast area NW and SE of these trails where military movement isn't practical - and I include in that the trail you mention in the North - which indeed is a "trail" and not a road of economic significance that grew up along the route of an ancient trail. One does not set out to cross this area lightly - and if one does - one is well advised to follow the routes that are semi-developed. The same sort of thing applies on the NW frontier of Burma. There are two significant routes (one ancient), and lots of places STILL impractical to go (although a third road route is now in operation, to Kohema - it wasn't then of significance).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps the Japanese chose to use the Kokoda trail because it is the direct trail from Buna to Port Moresby, as opposed to the trail further east through Jaure that comes to the coast at Kappa Kappa or the trail even further east through Fasari or the trail even further east that reached the PNG southern coast at Abau. Of course they could have used they trail further west at Yodda that reaches the PNG coast NW of Pt. Moresby.

Or perhaps when they got to Kokoda they could have turned NW or SE and used the trail running along the Owen Stanley range that passes through Yodda to Kokoda to Jaure to Fasari.

There is also the Bulldog track which goes up to Wau, which is further West. In reality, wherever there were people living, which would be a significant part of PNG, there would be tracks/trails. I expect the Kokoda track was one of the tracks that saw more traffic, though, given it connected the North Coast directly to Port Moresby. But it was still a trail.

Andrew

Probably "trail" in this part of the world has an AUS meaning. There are "trails" in Northern Australia very much like these we discuss here - one lane roads. Probably historically actually trails. A trail is a footpath, either made by humans, or humans simply using an animal track. It has no foundation, no bridges as a rule, and is not wide enough for even a jeep, never mind a truck. Look at the US Army histories - these "trails" are suitable for at least 1.5 ton trucks (the standard of the pre war era). The Kappa Kappa Trail was suitable for 5 ton trucks.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps the Japanese chose to use the Kokoda trail because it is the direct trail from Buna to Port Moresby, as opposed to the trail further east through Jaure that comes to the coast at Kappa Kappa or the trail even further east through Fasari or the trail even further east that reached the PNG southern coast at Abau. Of course they could have used they trail further west at Yodda that reaches the PNG coast NW of Pt. Moresby.

Or perhaps when they got to Kokoda they could have turned NW or SE and used the trail running along the Owen Stanley range that passes through Yodda to Kokoda to Jaure to Fasari.

There is also the Bulldog track which goes up to Wau, which is further West. In reality, wherever there were people living, which would be a significant part of PNG, there would be tracks/trails. I expect the Kokoda track was one of the tracks that saw more traffic, though, given it connected the North Coast directly to Port Moresby. But it was still a trail.

Andrew

Probably "trail" in this part of the world has an AUS meaning. There are "trails" in Northern Australia very much like these we discuss here - one lane roads. Probably historically actually trails. A trail is a footpath, either made by humans, or humans simply using an animal track. It has no foundation, no bridges as a rule, and is not wide enough for even a jeep, never mind a truck. Look at the US Army histories - these "trails" are suitable for at least 1.5 ton trucks (the standard of the pre war era). The Kappa Kappa Trail was suitable for 5 ton trucks.

Which is why (without going into the old debate as to whether the correct terminology is Kokoda Track v Kokoda Trail) our term is really track, not trail.

Alfred

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps the Japanese chose to use the Kokoda trail because it is the direct trail from Buna to Port Moresby, as opposed to the trail further east through Jaure that comes to the coast at Kappa Kappa or the trail even further east through Fasari or the trail even further east that reached the PNG southern coast at Abau. Of course they could have used they trail further west at Yodda that reaches the PNG coast NW of Pt. Moresby.

Or perhaps when they got to Kokoda they could have turned NW or SE and used the trail running along the Owen Stanley range that passes through Yodda to Kokoda to Jaure to Fasari.

There is also the Bulldog track which goes up to Wau, which is further West. In reality, wherever there were people living, which would be a significant part of PNG, there would be tracks/trails. I expect the Kokoda track was one of the tracks that saw more traffic, though, given it connected the North Coast directly to Port Moresby. But it was still a trail.

Andrew

Probably "trail" in this part of the world has an AUS meaning. There are "trails" in Northern Australia very much like these we discuss here - one lane roads. Probably historically actually trails. A trail is a footpath, either made by humans, or humans simply using an animal track. It has no foundation, no bridges as a rule, and is not wide enough for even a jeep, never mind a truck. Look at the US Army histories - these "trails" are suitable for at least 1.5 ton trucks (the standard of the pre war era). The Kappa Kappa Trail was suitable for 5 ton trucks.

Since you obviously did not read the US Army history let me put it into really big type for you as I already posted it above once.

The March to Jaure

On the Kapa Kapa trail, meanwhile, Captain Boice and a small party were advancing toward Jaure and Major Baetcke, in command at "Kalamazoo," was building a forward supply base at Arapara, about thirty miles away by trail. Though the road was still unfinished, it was possible by this time for jeeps to travel over it as far as Nepeana, a distance of about fourteen miles. Over the remaining sixteen miles the track was so steep and so rough that native carriers had to be used to do the job. Supervised by ANGAU officers the natives were hard at work moving the supplies forward on their backs.26

How does that jive with 5 ton trucks?

[noguaranteeofsanity]

Track or trail (both terms are used and its an ongoing debate), I think most who have read any account of the fighting in PNG and some of the descriptionbs above, would consider that term to be somwhat generous when describing the Kokoda Track. While it was a path, cut through the jungle along which one could move, it could hardly be compared to a track, trail or path in less hospitable terrain,such as in North America or Australia. Even if trails were to be re-introduced in other places, I would suggest that the Kokoda Track be left out, as improving the movement of men and supplies would seem to contradict history and as i have said, it really cannot be compared to trails, tracks or paths elsewhere.

As an example, im currently reading the biography of Brig. Arnold Potts who commanded the Australian 21st Brigade in PNG and included the story of a company attack on a japanese position, less than a mile away. It took the soliders 12 hours to cut and find their way through the jungle, before they even reached the Japanese position, which should help illustrate how difficult the terrain was to navigate.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Looking at pictures of the "Golden Stairs" of the Kokoda track, it seems obvious that the track was not more than a footpath, impassable to any kind of vehicles.[/align] [/align]The Allies found it impossible to move artillery (not even light arty) over the Owen Stanleys in order to support the Buna campaign. [/align] [/align]The few arty pieces they had at Buna had to be shipped by sea in small craft.[/align] [/align]I have added a few such vessels of the "US Army Small Ships Section", but I have found no way to prevent movement of heavy weapons through heavy jungle (trail or no trail) - any ideas? [/align]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Looking at pictures of the "Golden Stairs" of the Kokoda track, it seems obvious that the track was not more than a footpath, impassable to any kind of vehicles.[/align] [/align]The Allies found it impossible to move artillery (not even light arty) over the Owen Stanleys in order to support the Buna campaign. [/align] [/align]The few arty pieces they had at Buna had to be shipped by sea in small craft.[/align] [/align]I have added a few such vessels of the "US Army Small Ships Section", but I have found no way to prevent movement of heavy weapons through heavy jungle (trail or no trail) - any ideas? [/align]

I grant that the Kappa Kappa Trail was better. The problem with the Kokoda is not so much most of the trail - I have walked it (you have to pay for
the privilage) - as the "steps." At one point - it isn't road like at all - but involves climbing stone steps. Still - it was not "impossible" to move guns -
because the Japanese managed to do it. What was impossible was to use their bikes. They gave up within a few km of Buna - leaving them by the trail
[The 144th - the elite unit of the I JA - was bicycle infantry - and in Malaya - similar troops fared well on paved roads ]

The Allies had a larger logistic footprint - and ended up using air - building and/or expanding airfields - eventually. See Victory in Papua, the official US
Army history. But before the airfields were built - they fought along the Kokoda trail - driving the Japanese back (who in fact were ORDERED to go back because of Guadalcanal) - at great agony. My point is - players will NOT use the historical routes that really mattered if all the hexes are the same. Nor can they use airfields that mattered unless they are dot loations at least.

[el cid again]

For some reason the "triple city: of Wuhan lost Hanyang. Better than WITP - which had only one -
these three cities - separated by rivers (including the mighty Yangtze) - are OCEAN ports far inland
and the economic heart of China. And the ROC is for some reason not near them in AE - although
it was in WITP - did history change? Or was WITP wrong about that? In RHS - fighting over
the triple city is key to China - and it is no picnic for the IJA.

[TulliusDetritus]

Hey, long time no see you, El Cid Again. Welcome back [:)]

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Still - it was not "impossible" to move guns - because the Japanese managed to do it.

Technically true..., if you consider their 70mm infantry gun to be "artillery". [:)]

[el cid again]

I do, of course.
But they also had an artillery "battalion" of two batteries only - which used pack 75s
and surely that is real artillery
The 70mm infantry guns were very interesting weapons
even including AT rounds - not the HV type - but HEAT - something that became popular
in postwar times -
able to elevate like a mortar - and yet be used direct fire -
they are found in almost every battalion of IJA infantry - including the airborne (except,
of course, those battalions had the title regiment)
but in the "units" - a unit is a brevit formation with two line formations - there was also
this 'artillery' battalion
Later they devised a pecular mechanized form - but I don't think the game system
will permit it to fly - never mind it could

[el cid again]

Looks like the triple city of Wuhan is not a triple city any more in AE - Henyang is gone.
This is one reason China is weak. So is the lack of oil. When stocks run out - the
refineries have nothing to turn into fuel - so HI has no chance to work.

Karachi lost its refinery - and nearby oilfields.
Well - lots of places did that. Many oilfields, large and small, are absent from
China, Manchuria, even the NEI.

But the biggie is that Japan has monsterously large resource production - so it need import
no resources to speak of - while the source of those - Manchuria, Korea, China - in particular
are so poor that Manchuria will need to IMPORT resources or not run its production -
the opposite of IRL.

[US87891]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I am a graduate of the US Army Jungle Warfare School - when it was in Panama. Granted that jungle in Central America is a lot worse than in SE Asia - I also made it to the Philippines and Viet Nam - cross country movement can be from 200 to 2000 meters per day! The "trails" on NG are not like that. And the good ones are NOT in every direction in every hex.

That is very interesting. I was an instructor at JOTC, Ft Sherman, during my active career. You would have known me as Motti. Would you pm your name, so I know who it is that I am communicating with. My present position allows me access to service records and it's always nice to know how to address comments to people with prior experience.

Mat

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

...

But the biggie is that Japan has monsterously large resource production - so it need import
no resources to speak of - while the source of those - Manchuria, Korea, China - in particular
are so poor that Manchuria will need to IMPORT resources or not run its production -
the opposite of IRL.

Welcome back Cid ... I'd crunch the numbers again because I think you're wrong about this in stock anyway.
[*]minus 80K Resources/ day for Japan
[*]plus 35K Res/day for Hokkaido
[*]plus 15K Manchuria & small deficit with Oil
[*]plus 5K Korea
[*]plus 9K China

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I grant that the Kappa Kappa Trail was better. The problem with the Kokoda is not so much most of the trail - I have walked it (you have to pay for
the privilage) - as the "steps." At one point - it isn't road like at all - but involves climbing stone steps. Still - it was not "impossible" to move guns -
because the Japanese managed to do it. What was impossible was to use their bikes. They gave up within a few km of Buna - leaving them by the trail
[The 144th - the elite unit of the I JA - was bicycle infantry - and in Malaya - similar troops fared well on paved roads ]

The Allies had a larger logistic footprint - and ended up using air - building and/or expanding airfields - eventually. See Victory in Papua, the official US
Army history. But before the airfields were built - they fought along the Kokoda trail - driving the Japanese back (who in fact were ORDERED to go back because of Guadalcanal) - at great agony. My point is - players will NOT use the historical routes that really mattered if all the hexes are the same. Nor can they use airfields that mattered unless they are dot loations at least.

While I contest that the trails over the Owen Stanleys were "one lane roads suitable for 5 ton trucks", I agree that there should be some incentive for players to use the historical routes and the ability to use bases that mattered. I have added dots for Kokoda, Tufi/Wanigela, Oro Bay/Ponagi, Morobe, Sio and Gusap, the Daru airstrip at the Fly River (aircraft ferry route from Australia to PM via Horn Island and Daru) and the Hood Point Emergency Landing Ground betwen PM and Milne Bay. Kokoda has an 1/0 airfield with 100% dmg, Gusap 0/3 potential as airbase, the other locations have 0/1 potential for airbase and port (Morobe for example was a barge staging base, Tufi a PT boat base). I also have seperated Dobodura from Buna since the Dobodura airstrips played a significant role in the battle for Buna. Although separated by about 20 miles and thus technically in the same hex in the game, I think the "operational possibilities" outweigh the geographic accuracy in this case. There are two routes between PM and Buna: 1. the northern Kokoda Track, 2. the southern Kappa Kappa Track via Dobodura. I would like to erase the secondary roads in the PM and Buna hexes, but I have no clue about editing the PWhexdat... - help anyone?

[dwbradley]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I grant that the Kappa Kappa Trail was better. The problem with the Kokoda is not so much most of the trail - I have walked it (you have to pay for
the privilage) - as the "steps." At one point - it isn't road like at all - but involves climbing stone steps. Still - it was not "impossible" to move guns -
because the Japanese managed to do it. What was impossible was to use their bikes. They gave up within a few km of Buna - leaving them by the trail
[The 144th - the elite unit of the I JA - was bicycle infantry - and in Malaya - similar troops fared well on paved roads ]

The Allies had a larger logistic footprint - and ended up using air - building and/or expanding airfields - eventually. See Victory in Papua, the official US
Army history. But before the airfields were built - they fought along the Kokoda trail - driving the Japanese back (who in fact were ORDERED to go back because of Guadalcanal) - at great agony. My point is - players will NOT use the historical routes that really mattered if all the hexes are the same. Nor can they use airfields that mattered unless they are dot loations at least.

While I contest that the trails over the Owen Stanleys were "one lane roads suitable for 5 ton trucks", I agree that there should be some incentive for players to use the historical routes and the ability to use bases that mattered. I have added dots for Kokoda, Tufi/Wanigela, Oro Bay/Ponagi, Morobe, Sio and Gusap, the Daru airstrip at the Fly River (aircraft ferry route from Australia to PM via Horn Island and Daru) and the Hood Point Emergency Landing Ground betwen PM and Milne Bay. Kokoda has an 1/0 airfield with 100% dmg, Gusap 0/3 potential as airbase, the other locations have 0/1 potential for airbase and port (Morobe for example was a barge staging base, Tufi a PT boat base). I also have seperated Dobodura from Buna since the Dobodura airstrips played a significant role in the battle for Buna. Although separated by about 20 miles and thus technically in the same hex in the game, I think the "operational possibilities" outweigh the geographic accuracy in this case. There are two routes between PM and Buna: 1. the northern Kokoda Track, 2. the southern Kappa Kappa Track via Dobodura. I would like to erase the secondary roads in the PM and Buna hexes, but I have no clue about editing the PWhexdat... - help anyone?

Try the editor in the attached file in the first post in this thread:

tm.asp?m=2632394&mpage=1&key=?

For your purposes I think that will be sufficient. I know of one bug in the beta. The diagonal steering READ buttons don't work properly. You can do any editng you want without them ,fortunately. Any questions, ask here or PM.

Dave Bradley

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: el cid again

...

But the biggie is that Japan has monsterously large resource production - so it need import
no resources to speak of - while the source of those - Manchuria, Korea, China - in particular
are so poor that Manchuria will need to IMPORT resources or not run its production -
the opposite of IRL.

Welcome back Cid ... I'd crunch the numbers again because I think you're wrong about this in stock anyway.
[*]minus 80K Resources/ day for Japan
[*]plus 35K Res/day for Hokkaido
[*]plus 15K Manchuria & small deficit with Oil
[*]plus 5K Korea
[*]plus 9K China

Since I assumed stock was probably significantly better than before
I started with that. I ripped 4400 resource centers out of the Home Islands - and STILL have too much domestic production!
The only reason the economic system "works" is that
1) Many places get free supplies
2) Nobody to speak of has to devote MOST (or even any) of his AKs to move resources

The system does not model too many resources at point x, too few at point y, so you must move em from x to y
on a scale it is the MAIN thing you worry about -
if you need ships for an op - "can the economy of (fill in the blank) handle taking that many ships out of the transport stream?"

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I grant that the Kappa Kappa Trail was better. The problem with the Kokoda is not so much most of the trail - I have walked it (you have to pay for
the privilage) - as the "steps." At one point - it isn't road like at all - but involves climbing stone steps. Still - it was not "impossible" to move guns -
because the Japanese managed to do it. What was impossible was to use their bikes. They gave up within a few km of Buna - leaving them by the trail
[The 144th - the elite unit of the I JA - was bicycle infantry - and in Malaya - similar troops fared well on paved roads ]

The Allies had a larger logistic footprint - and ended up using air - building and/or expanding airfields - eventually. See Victory in Papua, the official US
Army history. But before the airfields were built - they fought along the Kokoda trail - driving the Japanese back (who in fact were ORDERED to go back because of Guadalcanal) - at great agony. My point is - players will NOT use the historical routes that really mattered if all the hexes are the same. Nor can they use airfields that mattered unless they are dot loations at least.

While I contest that the trails over the Owen Stanleys were "one lane roads suitable for 5 ton trucks", I agree that there should be some incentive for players to use the historical routes and the ability to use bases that mattered. I have added dots for Kokoda, Tufi/Wanigela, Oro Bay/Ponagi, Morobe, Sio and Gusap, the Daru airstrip at the Fly River (aircraft ferry route from Australia to PM via Horn Island and Daru) and the Hood Point Emergency Landing Ground betwen PM and Milne Bay. Kokoda has an 1/0 airfield with 100% dmg, Gusap 0/3 potential as airbase, the other locations have 0/1 potential for airbase and port (Morobe for example was a barge staging base, Tufi a PT boat base). I also have seperated Dobodura from Buna since the Dobodura airstrips played a significant role in the battle for Buna. Although separated by about 20 miles and thus technically in the same hex in the game, I think the "operational possibilities" outweigh the geographic accuracy in this case. There are two routes between PM and Buna: 1. the northern Kokoda Track, 2. the southern Kappa Kappa Track via Dobodura. I would like to erase the secondary roads in the PM and Buna hexes, but I have no clue about editing the PWhexdat... - help anyone?

I will try to scan an image of a photograph of a bridge on the "Kappa Kappa Trail" in the official US Army History
Victory in Papua. You will not doubt that it is more than a trail - not even a jeep road - but that 2.5 ton trucks
could use it in continuous stream and 5 ton trucks could cross alone. The typical military truck of the era was
a 1.5 ton - it was the standard of IJA and many armies - and there were also 3/4 ton trucks in numbers - even
in the US. Even so - the original concept - drive using these routes - turned out to be impractical - and they
built up and used airfields eventually.

The jungle is a hostile place. Everything bites, even the plants! And if not right on the ocean, the heat and humidity
are debilitating. Imagine the Japanese trying to manpack enough stuff to actually fight a battle. Still - the 144th
won the last great victory for IJA pushing an AUS brigade off the high ground SE of PM - that is a quote from a
Western history. IJA was - to that point - undefeated in ground combat - even vs a superior force. 144th was better
than average IJA - and even debilitated by the jungle and long LOC - it was up to taking the ground from relatively
fresh troops. It had to be ORDERED to retreat - heartbreaking after all that effort. Its commander is thought to
have gone into depression, and he drowned crossing a stream on the walk back.

Try to remember these are ECONOMICS routes - paths for commodoties of economic significance - goods for sale to
the outside world - materials of use in the towns along them - anything not made from the local trees and soil was
coming in along these routes. That only happened for cause. Again - if you know the jungle - nobody crosses it
for fun - never mind bearing something. It is for cause. The military merely used the existing routes. But the US found
its intensive logistical requirements exceeded the bearing capacity of the trails. Put enough stuff over them and you
make a mess. Then you need to take time to repair the foundations, bridges, etc. Easier to fly. For those rich Americans
with planes anyway. [The commander of an SS Panzer Division, witnessing the landings at Arnhem, said "I would like to
command such a force, just once!"]

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Welcome back Cid ... I'd crunch the numbers again because I think you're wrong about this in stock anyway.
[*]minus 80K Resources/ day for Japan
[*]plus 35K Res/day for Hokkaido
[*]plus 15K Manchuria & small deficit with Oil
[*]plus 5K Korea
[*]plus 9K China

The sources I worked off for the Japanese economy (some provided by Treespider) indicated that the movement of "resources" to Japanese was of the order of 50,000 tons (points) per day in 1941. In AE the figure was discounted slightly, to account for any missing shipping, to about 45,000 tons. That shipping requirement is many times higher than in the old WitP - I think about 7-10 times higher from memory.

I am happy to check out sources that indicate different figures, though, if anyone has some.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I will try to scan an image of a photograph of a bridge on the "Kappa Kappa Trail" in the official US Army History
Victory in Papua. You will not doubt that it is more than a trail - not even a jeep road - but that 2.5 ton trucks
could use it in continuous stream and 5 ton trucks could cross alone.

I don't have a lot of information on the Kappa Kappa trail, nor have I been there, but the information I have read* is that it was a more difficult trail than the Kokoda, and had, as part of its crossing of the Owen Stanley ranges, two passes of about 3000m (10,000 feet) that were so steep that soldiers were crawling on their hands and knees. That doesn't meet my definition of a road, but others are free to change the map in any way they like.

Andrew

* A democracy at war: America's fight at home and abroad in World War II By William L. O'Neill