Flying oil

[mgaffn1]

I concur with ernieschwitz, TwoTribes, and henri51 - leave it the way it is.
(EmTom makes some valid points in regard to realism, but many of the suggested fixes would lead to a less playable game)

[GrumpyMel]

In AT-Classic resources had to be connected to an HQ in order to be produced from a resource location (take a look at my Space Opera scenerio for an example). The no HQ looks to be a change that was made in AT Gold.... I'm guessing there might be some rulevar that might control that?

However the AT classic situation really wasn't much better as you could simply build an HQ unit in the resource hex, put 1 infantry or staff SFT into it and send your resource production into it and it goes into the global pool to be used anywhere.

It really helps if you think of supply as the type of refined fuel that your units really use when moving......as that does require logistic links from units to HQ's to production sites and can be stockpiled localy.

If you really wanted to design a model that was more realistic SSFSX17 has the right idea and it's something that could be done with the editor.

1) Design an SFT for each raw resource that you want to model (oil, ore, etc) and only resource locations build that type of SFT.

2) Manualy transport those sft's to the facilities (factory, cities, etc) that will process them and have a script that checks those locations eact turn and converts the raw resource sft's into processed resources that fill a regieme slot.

3) For things like tanks/planes, etc. Simply require that the processed resources be drawn from the global pool in order to produce that item type (look at Space Opera if you want an example of how to do this in the editor).

4) For things like fuel... use SUPPLY to represent it. Setup different item types that represent supply produced at different costs (You can look at the AT Classic version of WAW as I think it does this for pre-war japanese supply). CHEAPLY built supply requires use of processed oil resource from the global pool. EXPENSIVE supply doesn't require oil resource to build (You can think of it as synthetic fuel).

5)Use the supply consumption rate of SFT's to determine whether they are using fuel or not. SFT's that don't require fuel... infantry, horses, etc... use very low supply consumption, supply for them justs represents ammo,food, medical equipment, spare parts, etc. SFT's that do require fuel....tanks, planes, ships, etc... set to have a very high supply consumption.

6) Let the supply system determine logisticaly whether units are getting what they need to operate each turn.

(IMO)That's probably the closest you can get to modeling a realistic resource consumption cycle in the AT system. It's definately some work...but entirely doable in the existing editor/game engine.

Note - I'm not sure the AI would be able to intelligently handle resouce management like this for it's production though.

[Jafele]

I don´t know if it´s possible a solution to this issue since I don´t have a deep knowledge of ATG [:(]. But I think it should be tested. From my point of view a good rule needs two points:

1-Realistic
2-Easy to play (not excessive micromanagement)

If a rule is unrealistic or not easy to play, then it´s a normal rule. An unrealistic and not easy to play rule is a bad one. So, the flying oil is a normal rule, something strange in a good supply system game like used to be AT.

It looks I´m talking about obvious things, but if you look outside there are so many games with a lack of good rules, probably because the equation business=quality is over good rules=quality. I´m pretty sure that a game plenty of good rules can make happy to everyone. At the end we´ll have the game that we deserve.

[all5n]

I agree, its not that big of a deal. I can think of a other features that would be higher priority if the time/money was going to be spent.

ORIGINAL: mgaffn1

I concur with ernieschwitz, TwoTribes, and henri51 - leave it the way it is.
(EmTom makes some valid points in regard to realism, but many of the suggested fixes would lead to a less playable game)

[lancer]

G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

No connection, no resource. This simple change makes a huge difference to the play of the game. You get a more strategic focus on developing and protecting your transport grid.

Additionally I've got an option that requires you to provide transport capacity to move the aforementioned resources from your resources sites back to your capital.

This doesn't involved any micromanagement but it does require you to build a fair number of trains and cargoships - beyond normal use.

Any valid resources that can't be moved because of a lack of transport are sent to a 'stockpile' which you can access once you have excess (to normal requirements) transport capacity.

Developing that OIL resource to level 3 when it is two hexes from your capital is no big deal. Doing so when it is on an island halfway across the map becomes a major drama.

You also have the ability to tell the Fat Controller (who is running the whole show) to focus his efforts on one resource or another.

Changes the game more so. Aim was to bridge the difficulty gap between the AI (too easy once you get some experience) and the AI++ (too hard) while adding a more strategic focus. Also makes playing ocean heavy maps vs. the AI (it's weakest on these types of maps) a real challenge.

I've done this to tweak the game to my preferences. All done and dusted (apart from the fine tuning - balancing for different map sizes) and working nicely. Minimal overhead in turn processing times - about an extra five seconds on my computer which is pretty amazing given the amount of scripting involved.

As there seems to be an interest in this area I'll look at polishing it up and releasing it for general use.

Cheers,
Lancer

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

No connection, no resource. This simple change makes a huge difference to the play of the game. You get a more strategic focus on developing and protecting your transport grid.

Additionally I've got an option that requires you to provide transport capacity to move the aforementioned resources from your resources sites back to your capital.

This doesn't involved any micromanagement but it does require you to build a fair number of trains and cargoships - beyond normal use.

Any valid resources that can't be moved because of a lack of transport are sent to a 'stockpile' which you can access once you have excess (to normal requirements) transport capacity.

Developing that OIL resource to level 3 when it is two hexes from your capital is no big deal. Doing so when it is on an island halfway across the map becomes a major drama.

You also have the ability to tell the Fat Controller (who is running the whole show) to focus his efforts on one resource or another.

Changes the game more so. Aim was to bridge the difficulty gap between the AI (too easy once you get some experience) and the AI++ (too hard) while adding a more strategic focus. Also makes playing ocean heavy maps vs. the AI (it's weakest on these types of maps) a real challenge.

I've done this to tweak the game to my preferences. All done and dusted (apart from the fine tuning - balancing for different map sizes) and working nicely. Minimal overhead in turn processing times - about an extra five seconds on my computer which is pretty amazing given the amount of scripting involved.

As there seems to be an interest in this area I'll look at polishing it up and releasing it for general use.

Cheers,
Lancer

Sounds interesting. I am happy to hear some hardcore modding is going on. Will defenitely take a look at this when finished. I have been thinking about a capitol based system somewhere in the future as well. This might provide a good test.

Another thing that just didnt make my complexity-cut was next to RAW and OIL: a POP resource. This would defenitely make things more realistic as well as at a certain stage of the war you'll run out of manpower. I scraped the thing to keep things simple, but when I was thinking of adding it in i was planning to also let the ammount of POP you have influence your production power. So if you recruit all POP you will have a lack of people working in the factories.

best,
Vic

[Rander]

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

.
.
.

Cheers,
Lancer

It sounds great! [&o]
Hope it will be implemented on future patches.
Are you going to make the mod avaiable for download?

Kind regards,
Rander.

[Jafele]

Thank you Lancer, we´ll be waiting for the mod [:'(]. It could help to Vic for a future patch.

[lancer]

G'day,

Give me a week. Should be ready to roll by then.

Cheers,

Lancer

[Josh]

Great ideas all. [&o]
I do like Lancers idea, and the POP idea. Too much cannon fodder to the front and your factories go empty... Still, like Vic says, keeping things simple is important.  The reason I don't play HOI anymore... too many sliders and knobs doing who knows what. Yes you can influence everything, but IMHO it doesn't add fun to gameplay.
 
/quote: "let the ammount of POP you have influence your production power" Sounds great, ofcourse the next question is; what influenses this POP thing? Happiness? Enough consumer goods? War weariness? Strategic Bombing? Successes on the battlefield? So more POP happiness and more Consumer Goods = more POP growth, and more losses and the longer the conflict wears on the greater the POP decreases. Or the POP efficiency gets. Oh I found a new one I see, POP "efficiency". Your POP efficiency can rise and fall, depending on... say technological advances.

[Whydmer]

Awesome Lancer, thank you for your work on this, I can't wait to take a look at your mods.

[Jafele]

ORIGINAL: Casus_Belli

Same with ships at sea being able to use oil from a pool, or worse, having their oil used up by some air operation a hundred miles away. How would you get the oil from the fleet to the aircraft?

That´s true, this is important too. What will happen with ships? Could they have an oil stock without excessive micromanagement? I suppose that supply includes munition, food and water. On the other hand with loads of supply and without oil ships cannot move at all. Both are neccesary, one for combat, the later to move.

At the moment APs and readiness in ships are drastically reduced with low quantities of supply. I think that a lack of supply in ships must reduce their readiness and a lack of oil the APs.


A ship without oil in the middle of the ocean needs a HQ with cargoships to be refueled, just like supply. If it´s not possible then the ship shouldn´t be able to move.

[british exil]

ORIGINAL: Jafele

ORIGINAL: Casus_Belli

Same with ships at sea being able to use oil from a pool, or worse, having their oil used up by some air operation a hundred miles away. How would you get the oil from the fleet to the aircraft?

That´s true, this is important too. What will happen with ships? Could they have an oil stock without excessive micromanagement? I suppose that supply includes munition, food and water. On the other hand with loads of supply and without oil ships cannot move at all. Both are neccesary, one for combat, the later to move.

At the moment APs and readiness in ships are drastically reduced with low quantities of supply. I think that a lack of supply in ships must reduce their readiness and a lack of oil the APs.


A ship without oil in the middle of the ocean needs a HQ with cargoships to be refueled, just like supply. If it´s not possible then the ship shouldn´t be able to move.

Would have a create a supply fleet, cargoships and tankers to follow a battlefleet and meet up somewhere in a sea hex. Of course it would need a mod to include such ships that would be required to be built, if such a mod is possible. Or creating a stockpile of supplies on a remote island. Engineers needed to build bases, just like the island hopping in the pacific. Or like in North Africa WWII stockpiling till enough supplies where availibile to advance/ attack going a far as the supplies could follow, then grinding to a stop.

Mat

[henri51]

It is worth remembering that although some of those rules would make sense for human players, some would require a major rewrite of the AI for the AI to be able to use them.

For players like me who play only against the AI, we would rather see the AI being able to use the PRESENT rules for oil, so that the WW2 scenarios for ATG could be played against the AI.

Henri

[ghoward]

Hi Lancer, if you can really pull this off then I am impressed with both you and Vic' design. Is the AI going to be able to run this new resource empire, or will it play as it always has?

Sorry, didn't see the second page of the thread. questions already been asked but I think Henri51 is right, this should be a challenge for the human player, with perhaps some adjustment of AI targeting priorities

[lancer]

G'day,

Resource mod is for the player only.

No point making it for the AI as the end of the day you would only be degrading it's ability to perform and defeating the purpose of the exercise which is to provide a more challenging game vs. the standard AI. Not even sure if the AI could be programmed to handle it.

AI still targeting your cities, resources and ports as per usual. Main change is that the ramifications of losing parts of your 'transport grid' become more severe for the human player.

Also got an option in there for truck lovers. The standard 250 AP supply range from your headquarters has been made dynamic. Supplies - if you use the option - don't magically move themselves.

You have to maintain a pool of trucks to handle this. No micromanagement as the trucks could be doing other things - as long as they are present.

The size of your truck pool is proportional to the size of your army. Bigger your army gets the more trucks you need. If you don't have enough trucks then the 250 AP supply range starts to drop.

A bit like the Germans invading Russia. Supply went via rail then by truck from the railheads. Trucks where pretty important.

Game wise it's an option but it forces you to build a bunch of trucks that you might otherwise not (eg. too easy to bypass trucks and go with the horses). Bigger you build your army the bigger your 'tail' becomes - and your tail burns fuel.

Cheers,
Lancer

[Jafele]

AT has become a half-game in some way. I mean you can play against a limited AI or against a human opponent with a serie of rules limited by solitary games.I think that for the future there should be a the separation of rules between solitary and human vs human games. It will be neccesary to distinguish clearly because both cannot walk together. Sincerity from everybody is essential cos nowdays it´s almost impossible to improve the AI without cheating. I´m very tired of hear from everywhere promises like "we have improved the AI": Lies. After a few months of gameplaying everybody is able to win easily against the AI of any wargame. History repeats itself.

I can tell you ATG is my favourite computer game, surely the best I´ve ever played [&o]. So I think it needs to be improved as far as possible. It´s even more important to spend time trying to do it better or giving ideas than playing a nice scenario.