Fortress Java

[Chickenboy]

Most Japanese players have other plans-tier III objectives-in mind for their Java troops. Keeping 5-6 IJA divisions in static defensive formation on Java just to keep the Allies 'honest' is not tenable if one is to keep on target for their next objectives. A well-supplied Allied player's redoubts can hold out many months. Sure, you can "take back" Java by the end of 1942, but such a delay would effectively halt the Japanese offensive capabilities in the war's initial stages.

[Numdydar]

I thought the units would just eventually die off without supplies. Is that not correct?

[Schanilec]

I have a few LCU's on Sumatra holed up in two interior dot bases no supplies. 27 July 1942. Nothing I can do for them. I guess just wait and see.

[Canoerebel]

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.
 
Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I thought the units would just eventually die off without supplies. Is that not correct?

In WitP, AE or otherwise it takes forever and again, the new enhanced defensive terrain bonuses (Mountain....urban) triple or even quadrupple defensive strength. The more troops you have at the base in question, the greater their exponential effect defensive wise. small out of supply LCU's are easy meat, but like the air combat routine, get "mass" and it's impact increases exponentially. This is part of why stacking limits have always been a hot topic for this game. The same hex system though makes it very hard to implement so with the exception of atoll hexes wasn't tried.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!

Except that the units that were used in our case were expendible to begin with. They were largely native units with maybe a bit of reinforcement since noone in their right mind ever sends the Singapore reinforcements to Singapre. They were then concentrated in these two bases. All else in Java was abandoned including the very targets both sides either wanted to defend or deny to the other. It was a tactic strictly designed to buy time. Hence, there was no real reduction in Allied forces elsewhere. No as i mentioned there are counters but they are equally ahistorical hence i don't do them in my games. That being the "attack the fringes first" strategy before the hindsight and/or most valuable bases are invested with telephone poles.

So put another way, by early 42 our opponents had established 3 major telephone pole redoubts in the PI/SRA area in addition to whatever defensive nuclei were being developed else where. (3 other known TP positions building up were Darwin and PM of course along with Suva)

Its one thing to leave the PI TP to wither as it did historically....but with the two huge positions in Java as well at the same time....that equaled a tying up of considerable land assets. I don't see how Joe and I could just "ignore" all of that and move on. You can only leave so many forces cut off in the rear. It's not like "island hopping" where a overabundance of sea and air power could serve alone to isolate specific outposts. These were landlocked major enemy troop infestations.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!

Dan, the operative question is 'with what'? Namely, with what will the Japanese be able to extend their advance elsewhere if many of their forces are busy garrisoning Java or slowly reducing the entrenched Allies. If 5-6 IDs are held up in Java, that's going to take a major bite out of forces available to move elsewhere.

Note that the OP conundrum is the reinforcement of Java with forces from British Malaya and Singapore. My opinion is that it is absolutely better for the Allies to lengthen the survival of these forces away from Singapore than it is for them to be captured / killed in Singapore. If that extended holdout happens to take place on Java, so be it.

Supplied Allied troops on Java in defensible positions will impose a major delay on Japanese forces trying to clear the DEI. Full stop.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!

Except that the units that were used in our case were expendible to begin with. They were largely native units with maybe a bit of reinforcement since noone in their right mind ever sends the Singapore reinforcements to Singapre. They were then concentrated in these two bases. All else in Java was abandoned including the very targets both sides either wanted to defend or deny to the other. It was a tactic strictly designed to buy time. Hence, there was no real reduction in Allied forces elsewhere. No as i mentioned there are counters but they are equally ahistorical hence i don't do them in my games. That being the "attack the fringes first" strategy before the hindsight and/or most valuable bases are invested with telephone poles.

So put another way, by early 42 our opponents had established 3 major telephone pole redoubts in the PI/SRA area in addition to whatever defensive nuclei were being developed else where. (3 other known TP positions building up were Darwin and PM of course along with Suva)

Its one thing to leave the PI TP to wither as it did historically....but with the two huge positions in Java as well at the same time....that equaled a tying up of considerable land assets. I don't see how Joe and I could just "ignore" all of that and move on. You can only leave so many forces cut off in the rear. It's not like "island hopping" where a overabundance of sea and air power could serve alone to isolate specific outposts. These were landlocked major enemy troop infestations.

Well said too.

[Canoerebel]

All of this depends on too many factors to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule.
 
I do not think the Allies should always pull units out of Singapore.  There are times when defending there can be very effective, buying the Allies important time and space in the Bay of Bengal.  On the other hand, there are times when it's best for the Allies to evacuate Singers and use those troops elsewhere.
 
I do not see how "telephone stacks" in remote Java terrain would worry an experienced IJ player.  Japan can effectively isolate Java and then attend to those stacks mainly with bombers, finally mopping up with a few mixed brigades or so, just as the IJ player does at Bataan/Clark Field.  I can't imagine an experienced player devoting IJA divisions to mop up operations.
 
Unless the Allied player can get supply to Java, his troops are going to whither away under a well-thought-out Japanese bombing campaign.  And an IJ player would make a shambles of any Allied efforts to ram home supply. 
 
Allied telephone poles in remote terrain means the IJ player can take and build the important bases in and near Java.  The Allies won't be able to accomplish anything meaningful.
 
As an Allied player, I can't imagine trying the telephone pole tactic against a good, experienced IJ player.

[mc3744]

I'm trying to get back into the game (used to play WitP). This thread was very interesting. But I have two very important (for me [;)]) questions.
1) what's a telephone pole in Java?
2) where are the redoubts you talk about? I.e. Wouldn't you hold out in Soerebaja or Batavia? If not where?

Thanks [:)]

[Roger Neilson II]

My experience is that if you try to defend both there are so many good landing sites on the map the japanese can land at will then cut the island in half and then defeat in detail. Probably better to settle on one and dig in furiously - or dig in somewhere else and be a PITA.

Roger

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I'm trying to get back into the game (used to play WitP). This thread was very interesting. But I have two very important (for me [;)]) questions.
1) what's a telephone pole in Java?
2) where are the redoubts you talk about? I.e. Wouldn't you hold out in Soerebaja or Batavia? If not where?

Thanks [:)]

1) Telephone Pole: aka a very large stack of troops in a single hex.
2) The 2(?) mountain hexes in Java. They give a huge defensive bonus, troops there will last a lot longer than if they held in either Batavia or Soerabaja.

[undercovergeek]

i find a landing in Kalidjati, a drive west, and then a subsequent surrounding of Batavia closes this base off very well, and a landing at Semerang and a drive south, coupled with a landing on the very southern tip of Java surrounds Soerbaja very well too - only 3 hexes need to be occupied to completely surround Soerbaja and only 4 for Batavia

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders
2) The 2(?) mountain hexes in Java. They give a huge defensive bonus, troops there will last a lot longer than if they held in either Batavia or Soerabaja.

Thanks [:)]

However I could not find any bas in a mountain hex. I checked all the bases in Java and it says "Forest, clear sky, ..."
Do you intend to place your unit outside of a base?

[Smeulders]

That would be Forecast: Clear sky, better known as the weather report [:)]. Bandoeng and Malang are both mountain hexes with a base. Buitenzorg has mountains as well, but is on the coast, so can be bombarded by naval forces. To check the terrain of all hexes, use hotkey "1"

[mc3744]

Ups!

Thanks [&o][:D]

[Rob Brennan UK]

From someone who did use the 'telephone pole' of Niks description in Madeoin Java. IF the Allies have left both Indian divs and the Australians in Java from Singapore (+ assets) then supply will become an issue once isolated and then his large forces will become a big negative for the allies due to the bigger supply draw. I would suggest doing 2 things to get his supply down.

1) lots and lots of bomber raids on airfields. for the supply dump hits.

2) use bombardment attacks from ground forces (you wont get much damage but you will eat his supplies for breakfast (metaphorically). Actually the ground attack will cause more supply loss than the air attacks on average.

Allied reinforcement levels also mean that these units will take forever to rebuild (if at all) so that's a lot less troops in Burma/Australia for the short term future and even long term I would doubt he could rebuild 2 Indian divs before '44.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

All of this depends on too many factors to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule.

I do not think the Allies should always pull units out of Singapore.  There are times when defending there can be very effective, buying the Allies important time and space in the Bay of Bengal.  On the other hand, there are times when it's best for the Allies to evacuate Singers and use those troops elsewhere.

I do not see how "telephone stacks" in remote Java terrain would worry an experienced IJ player.  Japan can effectively isolate Java and then attend to those stacks mainly with bombers, finally mopping up with a few mixed brigades or so, just as the IJ player does at Bataan/Clark Field.  I can't imagine an experienced player devoting IJA divisions to mop up operations.

Unless the Allied player can get supply to Java, his troops are going to whither away under a well-thought-out Japanese bombing campaign.  And an IJ player would make a shambles of any Allied efforts to ram home supply. 

Allied telephone poles in remote terrain means the IJ player can take and build the important bases in and near Java.  The Allies won't be able to accomplish anything meaningful.

As an Allied player, I can't imagine trying the telephone pole tactic against a good, experienced IJ player.

Hi,

Well not suggesting a hard fast rule, because frankly...it was a legit and brilliantly done tactic. "I" admittedly was suprised when after careful(somewhat...this is ME after all) preperation, i found not only my landing completely uncontested but that all the major bases and cities were empty. Same for Joe when he landed near Batavia. He, however was not suprised when we found the island empty except for two very large TP's at both Mountain hex dot/level 1 bases.....because he had done something similar to a player one opponent himself.

What bothered me about it was that it just felt gamey. Historically the dutch were concerned about defending their territory...not simply being a sacrificial cog to delay the enemy so that future defenses/offensives in the pacific (considered by most players to be "the main event") could develop. So abandoning every base, resource and city just to score 4x defensive bonus in two hexes by a stack of LCU's just made me feel like i was playing "a game" vs. a simulation of the real life conflict. It's just not the style of game i want to experience or inflict on my opponents. Hence why i'm always an advocate of discussion and flexability when choosing a PBEM opponent. Not saying i will be a pushover when i play Allied and Japan comes knocking, but i do try to play with a frame of mind that says....what would this particular group/nation do.....what's the goal? For Java.....i would at least make a stab at building a defense that includes some of the "prizes" that are valuable to them. To simply stack everything in one or two hexes for the game bonus of defensive terrain as part of a greater "plan" that benefits another is not really valid to me. Thats just me. Hence, i'm not suggesting a "rule" more a style of play and yes....it promotes alot of grey areas....hence discussion is vital. In no case am i criticising our opponents. It was legit...and it was effective and very well done.

Which leads to a more down to earth question. It's said there are counters.....another problem i have with any wargame is when a Pro or set of Pro's is not balanced by a Con or a set of Con's. Thus far, i see no real game mechanics "Con" to this tactic of TP'ing at a highly defensive hex. Yes....airpower will reduce supplies as will bombardments but these will still take time and Player one has a tight timetable that AE (IMO) makes alot harder to keep **if*** facing smart Player two's who know their craft. I may not be much of a player but i know Joe is.....yet ultimately grading our performance based on the historical timeline, we did extremely poorly.....our two biggest successes would not have occured if not for bad luck and one error on the part of our opponents.

open to suggestions of course [:)] I think....IIRC...this tactic delayed us by at least 6-8 weeks in Java.

[mc3744]

I think that it's incontestable that the Dutch wouldn't have played looking at the big picture.
Hence you issue has, IMHO, prefect legitimate ground.

I do believe it's a matter of perspective. Here the player is the supreme commander of the whole war theater. As such, probably even if there was one IRL, the choice of slowing down the enemy by sacrificing some unit would be realistic and not ganey.
It's gamey simply because IRL they did not coordinate. But they should have.
IRL they made so many mistakes for lack of coordination. Should we replicate them to make the game more realistic?
I'm not sure. I do appreciate your complain, but as a Japanese player I wouldn't mind my opponent doing it, and now that I know about it I might just do it myself too [:D]

[Bill Durrant]

Not that I play the Japanese side but I've always tried to stop them getting the fuel, resources and oil from Java as I thought this was their primary issue in invading and the longer I stall this the more it hurts them. In that case I defend the bases and not hide in the hills ...... or am I missing a bigger picture?