NKVD supermen

[timmyab]

I like them[:D]
Actually they're about the only thing in my intire arsenal that are holding you up at all.Forget KV-1s, I want more NKVD supermen.

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I like them[:D]
Actually they're about the only thing in my intire arsenal that are holding you up at all.Forget KV-1s, I want more NKVD supermen.

Sadly soviet cannot build more of these super units that stop German advance into steel wall but maybe tossing some Rifle brigades and tank brigades supported with AT brigades makes the same?

[marcpennington]

NKVD troops did tend to be better trained, more motivated, and much better armed (particularly with sub-machine guns) then the norm, in many ways pre-cursors of modern day special forces or airborne troops. But that said, my understanding is that the border guards were hardly these elite forces---- I don't have it in front of me, but Glantz's Stumbling Colossus is quite dismissive of their combat capabilities IIRC.

More to the point, I think these border regiments were withdrawn from the OOB fairly quickly (or were effectively destroyed.) Again, I don't have the volume in front of me, but I'm fairly certain there were no NKVD border guards regiments in the Battle of Smolensk per the OOBs in Glantz's Barbarossa Derailed, albeit to confuse matters one tier of the reserve armies were formed around NKVD cadres, though I don't think they kept the NKVD designation in their unit numbers.

In game terms, I would argue that the NKVD border guards might be a bit over-powered, and more to the point they last in the OOB for too long. But a lot of this might be tied to smaller units not taking casualties properly, as has been mentioned in another thread, and I believe is being worked on for the next beta.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Speaking for myself, I'm not saying a freak event once in a while wouldn't be fun. But as a rule, always, hmmm...

I haven't checked the link, but wouldn't that be high quality fins, in highly forested terrain, on homeland against very poorly led and trained Russians?

Finns weren’t professional soldiers either 95% of manpower in Finns army were civilian conscripts. Many finns didnt have even military equipment other than rifle. Many troops bring their own clothes and gear to war since there was not any in the military other to give than rifle.

So what does that say about Soviet troops that faced them...

Maybe the Soviets should have invaded finland with an army of document wielding, dumpster burning commie NKVD regiments and they would have fared better.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
Sadly soviet cannot build more of these super units that stop German advance into steel wall but maybe tossing some Rifle brigades and tank brigades supported with AT brigades makes the same?

I have noticed that AT brigades have similar properties.
I do think there's a lot about the combat system in general that needs rethinking and clarifying.Apparently strong units evaporate into dust for no discernible reason while one security regiment in open terrain can hold up an entire corps for days.

[randallw]

The term "hold up" is being used loosely here.  Those regiments aren't HOLDING their ground when attacked; they're retreating each time, with a bad casualty ratio.  They are delaying their attackers, not stopping them.

[Michael T]

The game needs an over run rule. Its that simple. I can't think of a good game (IMO) on the Eastern Front that didn't have one.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I think the problem isn't that they can slow down, cause a division to deploy and plan an attack, but rather that a unit of 1000 men is still around after suffering 50% casualties in that fight. A heroic defense is one thing, and the MPs the attacker used represents that delay, but being able to fight 2-3 such devastating (to themselves) battles in a week's time seems a bit beyond the pale.

Units did not keep cohesion when they suffered so many losses so fast (as a general rule), NKVD motivation or otherwise.

[Flaviusx]

They tend to disband after such heavy losses. After a few turns used in this manner, most of them go away.

Honestly, guys, this entire issue seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. German players are doing quite nicely in 1941, and exceeding the real German army's accomplishments, notwithstanding the NKVD supermen.

I can't take these complaints seriously, unlike the maginot line 1942 stuff -- that's a genuine game balance issue, this is just German bellyaching.

[sveint]

Odds of over 100:1 should be an automatic rout or shatter.

[Michael T]

To deny there is a problem with ants in this game is putting your head in the sand. Even the Devs have acknowledged that small units don't take enough hurting when hit at high odds. Its not bellyaching at all. The OP has a legitimate gripe.

[Ketza]

Well it sorta depends on how they are used. Timmyab is doing a very good job of putting them where they tend to do the most good. The best I have seen any Soviet do so. As a matter of fact I never considered them a problem until now. It must go to his overall being very good at being a Soviet. I have spent countless hasty attacks on these regiments and then found that even with deliberate attacks they are a pain in the ass.

It may not seem a lot to lose 5-10 mps a turn with some of your units but the first 10 turns as Germany are their only time to make any signifigant impact on the entire course of the game so it is very frustrating to not maintain a timetable or lose grabbing an important hex because of the quirky nature of these units. Also it allows the Soviet to slow down an area without using higher quality units which can actually shatter with one combat. Its all very weird...

Myself as a Soviet never used them in this manner as I tended to think of them as I did when I played Fire in the East. They were crap ants that had no impact on the game.

Time to rethink them!

[KamilS]

I absolutely can't understand situation when NKVD regiment defending alone, against tanks in open terrain can't be annihilated at least 2 times out of 3. In one of my games, I repetitively attacked one unit 7 times during one turn and it still properly retreated each time.

[Michael T]

Fire in the East, I am playing it right now. Same in EFS, OCS, HPS PzC, TOAW etc etc. Border troops evaporate as soon as the enemy crosses the border, no matter what nationality. I have chased these ants around and around in a pocket and they just won't give up.

[Flaviusx]

If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

[Michael T]

So your view is that no matter how idiotic a situation is, if it isn't a major flaw ignor it? Well even if it isn't a major problem in your view, it is part of a larger overall issue with the longevity of ants, not just NKVD super ants. And that is a major problem. Ants are a big part of the carpet defence. Ants with their unwarranted longevity and their zoc costs are a big problem.

Disclaimer: I play both sides, not just the Soviets or Germans.

Oh and BTW, these issues we see in WITE with ants is precisely why over run rules exist in other games. They solve the problem.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Be that as it may, in most games of this complexity, you just overrun the critters and be done.

Having no pursuit phase not only makes tanks ineffective but only makes this possible.

You have 50 MP and want a pursuit phase as well?! [X(]

MOAR NKVD!

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

I think my basic problem is not the combats, per se, but rather that they do last attack after attack. While I understand the abstraction involved, it seems as if these units really do last far longer than they should. My own preference? See far shorter lasting units but more of them (grin), to represent blocking troops.

I do not argue that the 1941 Germans can do too much, but I would like to see the road in getting there seem more realistic.

Just my two cents.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

Its not that these units are costing games its just that this is another issue that needs to be looked at. Its the cumulative effect of these seemingly minor issues that add up to bigger problems. You said yourself you rather enjoy these units. Why? Sell us on why they should be in the game doing what they are able to do.

The thing is in some cases you cant help but chase them around. They are an enemy unit that if bypassed can cause problems like flipping a hex back over or breaking a rail line.

I am not saying they need to just go poof. If I take the time to set up a deliberate attack with overwhelming odds the problem should be taken care of.

Its players pointing out issues like this that hopefully lead to fixing weird or broken mechanics.

[Flaviusx]

What's the issue? How is this harming the game, exactly?