OT - P-51 Crash at Reno

[Rising-Sun]

Well not much to prove after what happen, black box or his body. Only the radio messages and his past six to twelve months of his time if any problems.

[Nikademus]

As time relentlessly marches on.....i begin to wonder if we are approaching a time when these vintage era WWII planes will simply become too old to fly safely. After all.....these planes were originally designed for a short term disposable life cycle in a massive war of attrition. I do understand that these machines are intricately maintained. I learned at the Flying Heritage museum for example that EVERY single part of a vintage plane must pass inspection before it will be cleared by the FAA for flight.

Still.....you wouldn't want to try firing a preserved battleship's guns given their age. A plane's airframe will age....and fighter aircraft in particular endure great G forces and stresses. I suppose flying totally new replicas would be a way to preserve the desire to see them in action.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Well not much to prove after what happen, black box or his body. Only the radio messages and his past six to twelve months of his time if any problems.

Au contraire.

They have something like +60 mins of amateur video, 3 different professional videos with sound, and hundreds of photos to review. Far better than a black box for the NTSB teams. As I stated before, I expect the preliminary report to be issued fairly quickly (anything under 21 days is considered fast) and when the full report comes out in 18 - 24 months I have little doubt they will know the cause of the crash to a high degree of certainty.

I've see these guys piece together an accident with far, far less to go on. Think the old Boeing TWA accident. Took what 5 years?, but they finally figured it out and what little wreckage they had access to was corroded with sea water, no witnesses, no photos of any substance, .... this flight is relatively easy for those guys.

Finally, read my post above. The guys who were discussing it, they had already reviewed 20 mins of video and 100 photos. My experience is that they will be pretty close to the final cause.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I do understand that these machines are intricately maintained. I learned at the Flying Heritage museum for example that EVERY single part of a vintage plane must pass inspection before it will be cleared by the FAA for flight.

This is true for ALL aircraft. Every part has a serial number. EVERY part. Every bolt, nut, washer, clip, tie, ... everything. They are all catalogued in a database like RAMCO. Every serial number must match up with a manufacturer certificate. This is SOP.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
A plane's airframe will age....and fighter aircraft in particular endure great G forces and stresses.

Of course, and they are replaced. That simple. When our aircraft go in for their re-build, something on the order of 25,000 hours depending upon service enrinonment*, our shop removes the data plate from the original frame, and then mounts it on a complete newly fabricated frame. We replace everything. Only the data plate is reused from the original aircraft. When our birds come out of rebuild, we feel they are better than when they came from the OEM.


* environments like Antartica and Alaska age aluminum far faster than say Kansas City.

[Lecivius]

CNN reported this morning that there was also an on-board video camera of some sort recovered.  I saw a picture of the plane including the missing trim elevator in the same segment.  It would appear to be just bad Joss.  And with the air show crash that also occured over the weekend, all the tin foil types trying to save me from the world are out yelling that such events need to be cancelled [8|]

[jcjordan]

I read a report where it said that the plane was equipped w/ some kind of "black box" that did download data to the crew on the ground so they will have some limited data to go on w/ what the plane was doing in addition to all the video shows. There's an old pilot joke that you have 2 docs - your regular doctor & the one you get you FAA medical through & may they never meet (Not saying that he hid something from his FAA doc). With the pilot being that old, I'm sure something medical did happen to him at some point during the incident but whether it was the cause or not, we may never know for sure.
 
 

[Rising-Sun]

Yeah that little piece of lose trim elevator on the tail from that video shot, it shouldnt cause that plane to crash unless something major happen. Im sure we have more details later on and who know how long that will be to see what really happen back there in Reno Air Show.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Yeah that little piece of lose trim elevator on the tail from that video shot, it shouldnt cause that plane to crash unless something major happen. Im sure we have more details later on and who know how long that will be to see what really happen back there in Reno Air Show.

Apparently and unfortunately it appears that trim elevator tab was the cause... it is small but it is very important especially at high speeds (and that unfortunate P-51 flew at very high speed before it crashed)... [:(]

BTW, few years ago similar accident happened with P-51 and elevator trim tab - this time the pilot managed to recover - he flew up that time (and also lost consciousness due to extremely high sudden GLoad caused by elevator trim tab departure)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[wdolson]

I also noticed in the pictures that the tail wheel deployed during the fatal loop.  That could have been due to very high g forces, though I've never heard of high g causing that on a P-51.  It may also indicate internal damage in the tail.  When the trim tab ripped off, it may have broken some cables in the tail which allowed the tail wheel to drop and may have meant the pilot had no control at all in those final seconds.

I expect the NTSB report will be fairly quick on this one.  They have a ton of data to to work with.  Much more than they usually do with a bad plane wreck.

BTW, looking at the NTSB website a B-25 had the right landing gear collapse on the runway in Delaware a couple of weeks back.  It's been a rough year for warbirds.

Bill

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

From other forums...

The reason...

450+mph.

Trim tab fails.

High G nose up attitude because of broken trim tab.

Pilot blacks out, seat collapses, etc...

Pretty much spells it out.

This is from a local F15 pilot apparantly:

"Guys,

I’ve done some more research. This photo shows that Jimmy’s elevator trim tab is apparently missing. If that’s the case, there is some precedent to tell us what might have happened.

The same thing happened to Bob Hannah in 1996 in Bob Button’s Mustang, called “Voodoo Chile” at the time. Hannah’s trim tab came off at 450 MPH, and the airplane pitched up at over 10Gs, popping the tailwheel out and G-LOCing the pilot. He woke up at 9000’ AGL and successfully landed.

10Gs could also explain why the Jimmy’s helmet is not visible in the canopy (the photo I sent in the previous email.) He might have been slumped down below the rail.

--Buck"

Leo "Apollo11"