Early US CV TF commanders (and tactics) discussion

[XPav]

Originally posted by battle



That explanation makes no sense at all. Why would the US dream up an imaginary Jap CV and claim to sink it? Certainly the Japs would know if there was a Ryukaku to be sunk or not. So it doesn't even make sense from a propaganda stand point. They had enough real Jap flattops to worry about sinking without making up extra CV's. If it was just an imaginary Jap carrier that the US claimed, it wouldn't have gone done in the history books as fact. If it's in the history books than it must have taken place.

They had faulty intelligence that led them to believe that Ryukaku existed. Then, standard pilot overexggeration led them to believe that they had sunk it.

Later, it was found out that no such carrier existed and was indeed, not sunk.

Its not like today, where, with the exception of China & North Korea, I can find a detailed ships listing online.

[Q-Ball]

As noted by others, ain't no RYUKAKU. Just like there wasn't any US Carrier Shangri La.

.....a reference to FDR's answer to where Doolittle's B25 strike came from, but you may already know my smartass answer.....

CV 38 was the Essex-class carrier USS Shangri-La, commissioned 9/14/44.

But IJN Ryukaku, that is a figment of the imagination.

[ltoot]

My father threw Samuel Elliot Morrison's volume describing the Bismark sea battle at me when I quoted Morrisons account of how many ships the 5th AF sunk . Dad's point being Mr. Morrison wasn't there and he was.
IJN SHOHO is listed as sunk on 5/8/42 that is the day after the USN AAR described the sinking of that other nonexistant carrier.

Rosevelt referred to the Shangri La as the source of the Dolittle Raid rather than to name the Hornet. That ocurred in the spring of 42 a couple of years prior to launch of CV-38. I wonder how BuShips came up with the name of Shangri La..........hmmmm?:D

[eMonticello]

Originally posted by XPav

They had faulty intelligence that led them to believe that Ryukaku existed. Then, standard pilot overexggeration led them to believe that they had sunk it.

Later, it was found out that no such carrier existed and was indeed, not sunk.

Technically, Ryukaku did exist since Hypo mistakenly used that name for Shoho (the carrier was still relatively new). Only after her sinking was she correctly identified as the Shoho.

reference: John Prados, "Combined Fleet Decoded".

On the note about Shangri-La... the name originated from James Hilton's 1933 novel, "Lost Horizon" that Frank Capra later made into a film in 1937. In the book, it was a fabled secret valley in the Himalayas that was untouched by the modern world.

When FDR mentioned that the Doolittle Raid originated from Shangri-La, he had this novel in mind. On the other hand, FDR might have been thinking about his "secret" presidential retreat in the Catoctin Mountains that was to be named Shangri-La when it opened a few months later in July 1942 (Eisenhower later renamed it Camp David).

reference: A variety of online sources (use google search "Roosevelt and Shangri-La").

[battle]

The history book I have which refers to the sinking of the Ryukaku, speaks of it as the "big new Jap flat top Ryukaku" sinking with all 1800 men aboard. Since the Shoho was just a CVL with no superstructure, I still can't conceive of the idea that US pilots couldn't tell the difference between a a full size Jap carrier and essentially a 'jeep' carrier like the Shoho class with a crew complement of alot less then 1800 men. This debate could go on forever. It seems everyone who has put in their 2 cents worth about the Ryukaku subject, has a different reference origin with conflicting info about the Ryukaku. It's getting difficult to know exactly what the historical truth is.

[eMonticello]

Originally posted by battle
The history book I have which refers to the sinking of the Ryukaku, speaks of it as the "big new Jap flat top Ryukaku" sinking with all 1800 men aboard. Since the Shoho was just a CVL with no superstructure, I still can't conceive of the idea that US pilots couldn't tell the difference between a a full size Jap carrier and essentially a 'jeep' carrier like the Shoho class with a crew complement of alot less then 1800 men. This debate could go on forever. It seems everyone who has put in their 2 cents worth about the Ryukaku subject, has a different reference origin with conflicting info about the Ryukaku. It's getting difficult to know exactly what the historical truth is.

Prados used recent declassified intelligence material (1992) to write his book. If the book that you referenced was prior to the release of the intelligence, then it may be out-of-date or the authors may have been misinterpreted their sources since Ryukaku was the name assigned to Shoho and was never recognized as a different ship. Even without Hypo, traffic analysis would be able to determine if there were two carriers named Shoho and Ryukaku (there would be double the amount of radio traffic as well as separate codes for the ships).

Besides, if Japanese scout plane can mis-identify the Neosho and Sims as being a carrier and three destroyers, it's quite possible for American airmen to exaggerate the size of the Shoho.

[Drongo]

To Battle

From
www.geocities.com/japanesecarriers/ Shokaku_Class/Ryukaku.html

There have been several websites and USN submarine logs showing the existence of a third Shokaku Class carrier, the Ryukaku. However, the Ryukaku does not exist. During WWII, the Shokaku was often mistakenly logged as the Ryukaku, and therefore records exist of the Ryukaku being hit by torpedoes by USN submarines. Errors have been possibly due to mistaken visual contacts of the Shokaku and Zuikaku, as they often served together, or as a result of misreading Japanese records on the Shokaku.
Rumors of a fourth Shokaku class aircraft are also false. Only two Shokaku class ships were planned and built.

You be the judge.

Apparently, the the CVL Shoho was misreported as the CV Ryukaku at Coral Sea due to confusion relating from a Ryukaku/Shokaku translation mix up when preparing some official communiques. The US airmen knew they had sunk a light carrier but after the battle, the name Ryukaku ("Dragon Horn") was incorrectly reported to the public (which probably was used in your book). Due to extreme Japanese national security before the war, the US wrongly suspected that there was a third Shokaku Class CV but could never confirm it till the wars end.

By the way, I don't believe the Ryukaku was sunk at Coral Sea. I saw the PT-73 sink the Ryukaku in an episode of McHales Navy. It had to still be around after May '42.

[battle]

The WWII history book I have is an Armed Forces Service edition published in 1945. I guess it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to assume that there might be some erroneous information written about the war, but I would expect historical sources that were written closer to when things actually happened, to be more accurate than alot of 'revisionist' history sources that like to claim such nonsensical things like President Roosevelt knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before it happened and junk like that. I know that there are fools out there that probably believe that kind of stuff. In any event, just about everyone who responded to the Ryukaku debate had a different slant/angle on the subject, and I must admit it sure brought out some interesting lurker's opinions. :rolleyes:

[Yamamoto]

It's funny. I've never heard of that but when I added four more Shokaku carriers in one of my fictional scenarios, I named one of them Ryukaku.

Yamamoto

[marc420]

Since I'm anxiously awaiting the mules at UPS Ground to deliver my copy of UV, I've been reading both this forum plus other WWII Pacific War history websites.

A website called HYPERWAR has a posting of some of the Combat Narratives prepared by US Naval Intelligence during the war. The CN for Coral Sea is posted. It was written in 1943. The following is an excerpt.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... l-3.html#C



The Yorktown group.

The estimate of the part played by the Yorktown group in attacking the enemy carrier, as reported by Captain Buckmaster, commanding officer, follows:

Yorktown planes first sighted the enemy at 1130, at a point about 20 miles northeast of Misima. As mentioned previously, the Japanese force observed included a carrier, a very large cruiser or battleship, 3 heavy cruisers and 1 light cruiser. As our planes approached they saw part of the Lexington group attack. The enemy ships maneuvered violently at high speed. After the Lexington planes departed, the enemy carrier ceased maneuvering and turned into the wind, "a perfect target." At 1147 Scouting Squadron FIVE, followed closely by Bombing Squadron FIVE, made their dives down wind from an altitude of 18,000 feet. There were 24 SBD's, all armed with 1,000-pound bombs, in the 2 squadrons, and they clairned 14 direct hits. So great was the destruction that the last bomber pulled away and released his bomb at the light cruiser. He made a direct hit on the stern, and the ship sank rapidly.

Torpedo Squadron FIVE, coming in low, found the enemy carrier listing to starboard and burning fiercely. Only a small section of the bow was visible through the smoke, and only 2 light guns were seen to be firing. Utilizing the smoke, the torpedo planes approached very close and scored 10 hits out of as many drops. Within 3 minutes after the last torpedo had struck, the enemy carrier disappeared beneath the surface. She subsequently was identified as the Shoho, but was erroneously called the Ryukaku for some time.

No fighter opposition was encountered during the Yorktown's attack.

[Von Rom]

Great discussion. I enjoyed the read.

Goes to show you what an open-ended game UV is, where players can try all types of strategies. . .