Petition to fix remaining bugs in 7.1

[tiggwigg]

Of course purchasing MC's doesn't purchase SPWAW…and perhaps some people have spent US$100 on their MC's…being an Australian with delivery I have spent closer over AUD$300…is there a game out there that costs that much? Sure I would like a new version of SPWAW…a lot of people have spent money on MC's would , but that doesn't make it worth maintaining further…

Paul has said responses to MC's have been poor…to get income from SPWAW Matrix have to build MC's, which have a significant cost overhead in themselves…at US$25 each, after production costs, they get less than $20…after business overheads your probably looking at $10…if they sell 2000, that comes to $20,000…which is the cost of a good developer for about 10 weeks…that would barely pay for the cost of the "bug" fixes…let alone the cost of the MC that would have to be built to go with it…MC's, like the SPWAW updates, have all been built free as a gift to us fans by people who care…matrix has now become a business concern, so is there anyway that matrix, as a financial concern, can afford to keep developing a product which is nothing but a financial drain and an emotional strain on the company and its staff.

As Les_the_Sarge says, let's wait for Combat Leader…if I am going to pay anymore, it isn't for an update to a venerable game for which the main failings are that the conceptual premise on which the game was built is too complex for the AI to work with. SPWAW is a great moderator of PBEM or H2H games, where both sides are human…but as an AI vs human game it fails dismally…the AI has no tactical versatility, all it can do in attack is charge forward into the human players waiting guns, and in defense form a front-line which takes virtually no consideration of the macro-terrain…find one end and you can pull it undone like a loose thread. Scenarios, including those in MC's, are better but generally end-up relying on the AI receiving an advantage in forces to create an even game…how many times have I found that in attack, the defenders actually have more units than me…no commander would willingly commit his forces without a 2:1 local superiority…but you can in SPWAW cause the AI is so stupid…this often makes AI opponent scenarios disastrous for PBEM, because it gives the AI-surrogate opponent an unreal advantage in units.

These, to me, are the real bugs in SPWAW, and they can't be fixed without a new game engine, hence Combat Leader.

What has frequently come out in forums is that the "bug" fixes requested are not programming errors or system design glitches that need to be fixed. Instead they are about changing game parameters to fit different player preferences. Along the may the last few real bugs have been fixed (like the synch and jugo bugs), either by code or game process. These changes to game parameters have meant some changes to code, which risks more bugs…that means lots and lots and LOTS of testing to minimise them, then follow-up builds to patch any more that are found…it just isn't worthwhile continuing to band-aid an old system when it is past its use-by date. The only way to go forward is by building a new game engine that resolves problems

SPWAW has gone through many updates…versions 4, 5, 6 and 7 are really variations of the same game on the same game engine…each version worked on its own merits as a game…each version has changed slightly the game management system based on player requests…version 4 infantry was overly vulnerable when fired at from close range; so version 5/6 made them tougher in cover and introduced overrun/melee to avoid it taking 20 turns to eliminate routed infantry; version 6 had armour shot routines that failed to reflect armour quality/type/ammo, so version 7 was implemented to resolve that. All these versions are playable in themselves…95% of the effort that went into each release was enhancement, 5% was bug fixes…better to spend that 95% enhancement effort on a new game.

[rich12545]

(big sigh) Let me try again. I understand when you get tired it's hard to think clearly.

I haven't seen any bugs. But I only play occasionally. If there are really bugs left after 7.1 they should be fixed. I'm not talking about oobs or desired features I'm talking about bugs.

The game is free. But the megas aren't and they depend on the game. If the game has bugs then it affects the megas which cost money. The megas won't play properly on a game with bugs.

But I haven't seen any. Are there really bugs in 7.1? Has anyone reported an honest to god bug?

[junk2drive]

If my version 7.1 became totally unplayable tomorrow, I would have the value of hundreds of movie tickets for the hours of entertainment I have received for free.
I heard about wargammer.com and SPWAW from pcgamer magazine. That lead me to all the other games and forums that I enjoy daily. Play the free game to gain experience in tactics then wait for the new games to come out.
I have learned to look for a patch as soon as I install a new game, before I even play it. It almost seems like the other game companies purposely put in bugs to cut down on counterfiting and copying.
I for one am not afraid to buy a game from Matrix. Most of us have lost more money on stocks or in casinos than a game will cost.

[G_X]

Originally posted by rich12545
(big sigh) Let me try again. I understand when you get tired it's hard to think clearly.

I haven't seen any bugs. But I only play occasionally. If there are really bugs left after 7.1 they should be fixed. I'm not talking about oobs or desired features I'm talking about bugs.

The game is free. But the megas aren't and they depend on the game. If the game has bugs then it affects the megas which cost money. The megas won't play properly on a game with bugs.

But I haven't seen any. Are there really bugs in 7.1? Has anyone reported an honest to god bug?

It makes sense now, thank you...sorry about that, sorry.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I have heard that Desert fox had a few snags (and patches might exist), also heard that Lost Victories had some oddities (and I know they have patches cause I have them myself), not sure about Watch Tower never heard anything about it having any troubles.

This could also be entirely connected to the fact that Desert Fox was made with a version earlier than 7.1, and Lost Victories was made just as 7.0 was being introduced. It is obvious the cds can't be made with a game that is newer than was around when MCs were designed of course.

People could poooooooosibly be discouraged if they buy a Mega Campaign for a game they know is great (but continuing to evolve at that point), and find that the MC has a slight hitch in it's smooth running.

Of course if we the players had not forced through whining, several (ok make the dozens) of upgrades from original Steel Panthers through to 7.1, it is well possible the Mega Campaigns could be a lot more numerous than 3 eh.
We would possibly also see that the game had several MCs that were made that all employed the exact same version of the game.

But we gamers are never truuuuuuely satisfied. I watched the posts people I was there. Most of the posts had nothing to do with actual "bugs". To me a bug is something like "the game crashes when I go to save game". That is clearly a sftware problem.
I DID see a lot of people commenting that this tank is done wrong, or why are my infantry so lame, or I thought mortars should do better. This isn't a software flaw, this is a personal opinion area.
But to adjust armour performances, or make infantry behave inherently different, or retool the effect artillery has requires a lot of doodling in the game.
And when you doodle in the game, you invite human error.

I think most of the bugs would never have arrived if the game had sat around being played while MCs were made to promote it, and had been left alone. It is well nigh possible that Matrix could have ended up where they are today, if they had become known as the premiere producer of ooodles of MCs for what was even back at the earlier versions like 3 or 4 still a great game.

I didn't start playing Steel Panthers because of 7.1. And it wasn't a Mega Campaign either. I was hooked by the very first incarnation (the one you had to buy from SSI). I gained it by purchasing the complied wargames set marketed as The Complete Wargames Collection (sadly Steel Panthers is the only game on the cd worth playing too).

There is no way to know where Matrix would be if they had just stopped with the versions back at 4 and only released a few patches for reeeeeeeeally obvious bugs (which you had to add to version 4 with no calling it 4.12345 etc.). I am not sure that they would have suffered if they had just made MC after MC making each a bit better, and making more in each case while waiting for them to eventually gain in popularity. The first MC would cost more to make cause it would be fewer items and smaller sales I suppose.
But would it have been better in the long run if they had devoted their time to marketing MCs instead of endlessly tweaking the game (hard to say). Time is money, and they sure used a lot of time on those versions.

But here I sit with a Lost Victories cd. And I consider myself lucky, because I doubt many actually have a MC, and I will wager a lot would like one, but missed the chance, or just never had the chance period (some just won't have the cash).
Only reason I don't have Desert Fox and Watch Tower is a I had to pick just one (cash limitations).

I am aware that it has a few "bugs" although I have yet to encounter them. Reason being in spite of my obvious interest in the game, I can't play one aspect of it to death all the same (real life always seems to intrude eventually eh). That and I don't always just play one aspect of Steel Panthers. I currently have a long campaign going as Germans. I just sweated through a looooong fight against British in the desert. I had become soft with 3 cake walk games, the I hit a brick wall and had to earn the 4th. I often play a turn then quit game (because I can't sit to long playing the game, health factor there). The game is something I sip at mostly. A campaign is like a good book I don't rush it.
I could probably play Lost Victories for 2 years and never see the bug that caused me to download the patches that I still haven't actually gotten around to installing eh.

Bugs are I think something that routinely happen to people that play the game way to long:D

[Alby]

Originally posted by GYBLIN
Ok Guys please dont blast me as whining.i started the thread to see if anyone else out there felt as strong as i do about the situation.I've seen alot of threads about "7.1 crashing" and why does my game go blank when i do x.Plus add in the millions of oob bitchers and why dont we have this feature and that feature.In this case this thread fails because not one person who has bitched about there game crashing has come here and spoken up.Must be those freebie lovers you guys are talking about.So i guess this is a wrap.Besides i have a little post it stuck to my monitor that tells me to save after every turn.:p




Respectfuly Gyblin

I suggest to all to try SPWAWH2H, Panzer leos MOD for SPWAW
The OOBS have been worked on alot as well as alot of other issues.
I would consider it an upgrade to SPWAW ver 7.1

[Charles2222]

Les the Sarge 9-1:

But we gamers are never truuuuuuely satisfied. I watched the posts people I was there. Most of the posts had nothing to do with actual "bugs". To me a bug is something like "the game crashes when I go to save game". That is clearly a sftware problem.

If you're going to recall history, which is vital to the point quoted above, you've better recall all of it. The point that a majority of the posts weren't concerning bugs is irrelevant, when David et al encouraged people to do more than just report bugs; asking how to improve the game for a start. Maybe some think that Matrix should've never bothered with what they might call a trivial waste of time, but in so doing they are proving their lack of vision. It it necessary to recall that SPWAW was a launching board for other endeavors, one might dare say, even an experimental pad for following games. With limited vision it may seem irrelevant to 'improve' the game, the greater vision sees quite clearly that it wasn't a useless, thankless affair. Cl would suffer GREATLY had it not been for soem of the talks not concerning bugs that had gone on. I'm convinced of that.

[rich12545]

Originally posted by G_X


It makes sense now, thank you...sorry about that, sorry.

No Problem.

[rich12545]

Originally posted by Alby


I suggest to all to try SPWAWH2H, Panzer leos MOD for SPWAW
The OOBS have been worked on alot as well as alot of other issues.
I would consider it an upgrade top SPWAW ver 7.1

I thought the h2h was some sort of multi mod. Is it compatible with everything including the megas?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Possibly Charles....possibly.

I think though, that the people that did all the fussing were always capable of producing Combat Leader all a long (I don't think they "needed" SPWaW as a learning tool).

It is a matter of debate that will never see resolution (because we can't go back in time and find out really).

Would Combat Leader suffer from Matrix having NOT spent all the effort fussing on SPWaW?

I am expecting (sadly I suppose), to see Combat Leader get released and get fairly mauled over by people convinced, that a solid year(s) effort designing it "was not in their considered opinion, enough".
Yes I truely expect this to happen.

The only difference will be, people lining up wailing how they spent good cash for it, and now Matrix has no choice but to address all their beefs.

I am looking forward to my first copy of Combat Leader (not looking forward to finding the cash though). I am also looking forward to playing it "as is" without much interest in complaining.

My only worry is can I manage the video card upgrade I am going to need to be able to run it at all. Starting in September I will likely be dropping not even remotely subtle hints that if a video card ain't under the tree in December, my Christmas won't mean anything to me present wise. Fortunately my hole card is the wife and son will gain a perk out of the upgrade as well.

Endless tirades on how Combat Leader is wrong this way or wrong that way better be veeeeeery good though, or expect Sarge to be breathing fire on your posts eh.

Posts exclaiming how it is the greatest game even crafted of course are permssable hehe:D

[Charles2222]

Les the Sarge 9-1: I agree on all points. Perhaps the majority of the groundwork needed for CL, which was crafted from SPWAW, was the need to determine just what the customers wanted. There also quite a lot to be said about how actually people running a game and having a forum for it at the same time, gleams so much ideas otherwise unattainable.

I don't know about you, but frankly I can't believe how lousy some of the beta-testers must be for games when so many glaring errors remain. I realize part of the problem si the hurry it up and get it out aspect, but it sure does beg people to take up another hobby.

I think also some of the items once debated are pretty much settled, for better or worse, such as Tiger FT armor, so that though they may be brought up yet again, at least those items have been drug through the mud a bit and some settling occurs.

[Kanon Fodder]

Well, from my point of view, Matrix may have given us too much already ...

I only have a certain amount of time to dedicate to playing games; real life "gets in the way" these days. If I were 30 years younger I would probably rarely see the light of day.

There are so many excellent scenarios yet to be played, not to mention the campaigns, that I am probably 'set' for years.

I don't think I could consider tackling one of the Mega Campaigns before retirement.

Now, if they would just allow tanks to reverse ...

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

You know that "tanks reversing" thing has had me vexed in the past as well eh.

Plenty of times I have moved into a spot I would rather get out of by not having to show my butt to the problem I was seeking to avoid.

We all know tanks reverse. Why exactly was this left out of the game anyway? Must have been mentioned earlier somewhere, but I have not encountered it myself.

With regards to "hurry up and wait", yeah I have seen a lot of this phenomenon. Each decade that goes past sees yet another generation that grows even more dependent on rapid response technology it seems.
Pre - order has to be the latest incarnation of a society that has no concept of patience.
At one time it was credit cards. People should learn to only buy something after spending the time needed to save the money in the first place.

I have seen such a wealth of comments on Battlefront's forums that indicate they can't even endure waiting a week for a game to ship let alone what was in my early gaming experiences usually a 1-2 span of time.

Computer technology is partly spurred on by a need for glitz, and partly because today's society is dominated by an inability to spend more than a fleeting moment before geting bored.

On that note, the greatest danger to the wargaming hobby might be the increasing inability to get anyone interested in any activity that requires even the most modest form of participation for more than a few minutes.

Ours news is all just sound bites, our movies are all special effects to keep our attention, are games are all pretty graphics to keep us entertained instead of thinking, requiring a person to actually read the rules of a game is usually considered absurd (hence the reason most games are designed with fast play rules (heaven forbid a person should be forced to learn the game first).

Funny, I started off with wondering why tanks can't reverse heheh:D

[G_X]

Heh...me and my friends have, using a hex based system, devised a few neat table top strategy games, with some rather advanced rules, one of them is baed off the Heavy Gear Tactical game, and another is a game rather similar to WaW.

I got into Wargaming not on the tactical level, but on the bottom base 1 man level, or two man, as the AH-64D Apache Longbow is a two manned set up That was my first game that had anything to do with war, and is still one of my favorites, flying low over trees to take down an enemy tank convoy...popping up over a hill just long enough for my radar to acquire a tank and launch a Hellfire then dripping back down to avoid getting hit by a SAM...it was great.

After a while I got into the tactical level, but with model-based Board games, specifically, Warhammer, and Warhammer 40k. (Yes, I know many Tabletop Wargamers think Games Workshop is pure Evil...I don't know why I love every one of their games...) After a while I found a few more other games, so on, till I got introduced to RTS's, my first RTS was the original Command and Conquer, and my first true favorite RTS was Red Alert (The original) I'd play Allied just to get a group of APCs and set up a mechanized Infantry company, it was loads of fun. Then I got turned onto Turn Based games, and I've kinda never gone back, and never wanted to. Games like WaW and SPMBT are almost all I play any more, and if I can't control other people somehow, I usually don't like a game much.

I'm not one of the people worried about how glitzy it looks, or how much time it takes...So I suppose it takes that 'Special Breed' to be a Wargamer, instead of just a Gamer...

Makes you feel kind of proud that you have the patience, the intellect, and the attention span when you think about it, anyways, I'm off to go continue my NA Campaign, heh.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

The only thing evil about Games Workshop, is how they charge top dollar for their bottom of the heap models.

I had thought of geting into the hobby a while back when some buddies were testing the waters.
One of my friends asked me to build his tank for him.

Now just to keep details straight I have been a "professional model maker", so just as a skilled programmer can make sweeping statements, so too can I say that Games Workshop's models are categorically "CRAP"!!.

I was paid 40 bucks to make that model, and you know something, I will never ever accept a request to build one ever again, even for good pay.

I have never ever witnessed such disgusting marketing practices from another model making company. They mass produce items and mix and match parts such that the models are sold as entirely new kits, yet with well beaten to death molds. And you pay a price for these kits that would even make a fan of high end models squirm uncomfortably.

50 bucks is ok for a top of the line Tamiya model fresh out of a new mold, but you would be lucky to get me to assess a Games Workshop kit above 5 bucks.

The game might be fun, but their product is my means of measuring the bottom rung on the ladder.

[G_X]

Heh...well, I won't disagree with that, well, I kinda will.

I've yet to have a model that didn't look incredible when it was put together. Yes, sometimes there are little "glitches" in the molds...and other things, sure. But I know alot of other companies, in other businesses, who do alot of the same things. If GW is Evil, then there are alot of Evil companies out there. I don't like GW's prices, :Rolleyes: Nor do I like the fact that for most people, you ~must~ use the ~specific~ models to play the game...I'd much prefer, especially for my Imperial Guardsmen, to design and build some pewter models myself (I have the tools to do this) But since the rule books basically state that you need to use their models...Blah.

And the cost was what eventually got me out of the WH and WH40k worlds, I just don't have that kind of cash lately.

And, also...if you ~trully~ wish to be technical, GW is not Evil for doing this, Citadel Models is as they are the ones who produce the paints, and model kits.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Yes to be more accurate it IS the manufacturers of the models that get my scorn.

I played the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying game for a time. It is easily one of the best opne book will do you roleplaying games in existence (by one book I mean you won't suffer if you don't buy anything else).

But a miniatures game that petulantly tells you to get stuffed if you don't use specifically over priced junk won't impress most generall speaking.

I think the figures are sometimes ok as far as examples of interesting subjects, but they are marketed to people that will be buying them in lots not individual items. As a collector of fantasy miniatures, I only want one of anything if I want it at all.

[G_X]

I would love it if the GW models were 3 or 4 dollars for the single-man sets that I prefer, to buy them in little bubble sets I spend a few hours painting and detailing each one, changing them and posing them if I have to, I have a full platoon of Imperial Guard infantry done this way, each model is unique, I actually have several Dioramas also, depicting scenes from battles I've played, it's just a hobby I have that eats up too much cash lately, if the pieces were pre-professionally painted (Done the way I do them, and detailed properly) I would think they might be worth $7 or $8, but for them to come unpainted, and often not even fully assembled, this price is extravagant...

I just have other things to spend my money on...like saving it for CL.

[OKW-73]

oh well...just noticed that my puter cant handle Combat Leader, so i guess im pretty stuck in spwaw, but after all its a greatest game this far wonder why all games need to go that **** 1000mb 3D cards and super giga mega hyper cpu things...its just too much for old 233mhz and poor OKW

[G_X]

I agree OKW...I think that WaW's graphics were great, and I don't see how CL can look that much better just because it needs even more system resources...bleh...

Hopefully I'll get a new comp soon, or be able to upgrade this one.