German Moral gains broken or is this BS by "design"?

[heliodorus04]

Has anyone ever re-posted the formula for morale increase?
I've asked, and don't recall ever having it responded to.

Since I'm convinced this is a game that is only designed to be a caged hunt for a Soviet player, and my entreaty goes unanswered (as far as I have been able to discern), nothing assuages my conclusion of the facts as I understand them.

We might begin to discuss how the principal of Regression to the Mean creates a gravity-like force that pulls German morale down to some average that is without question below the national morale whatever the year, and that same system pushes Soviet morale up to an average that is above its national morale whatever the year.

I'm reasonably sure I could prove this statistically if the formula is what I seem to remember seeing about the time morale change formulae were changed in some 1.04 patch, but I'd need the formula to be sure my analysis is born out by the math.

[mmarquo]

Well, for one thing - it would help to advance the turn and recheck the morale of the above referenced units. Reread the Morale section of the manual which is very informative.

Marquo

[ComradeP]

Pelton, I know thinking before you post is something you rarely do, but it would be nice if you did so in the future just to make sure you're not wasting everybody's time more than you normally already do.

For starters: give some factual evidence that German national morale is 50 in 1941. I know what your response will be: you'll rant a bit, give some vague descriptions of what you're seeing, place some statement in bold but there won't be any actual facts. You'll repeat that every time someone asks you. Still, it would do a lot to restore the credibility you've lost if you would try to prove a point.

Aside from automatic morale increase being less likely the closer you are to national morale, German morale will go to the national morale over time. It just takes time.

Also: in those infantry unit screenshots you've broken down a large number of divisions and haven't filtered the Finns or support units out and are forgetting that the Germans get 46 infantry divisions with 80 morale or higher to begin with.

Think before you post, save us all some time.

[wmcalpine]

Just tested German morale in 1942 with 10 combats with the 387th infantry division which starts at a morale of 68 in the blue scenario.

After 1 successful combat morale increased to 70
After 2 successful combats morale increased to 72
No increase for successful combats 3 and 4
After 5 successful combats morale increased to 74
No increase for successful combats 5,6,7,8
After successful combat 9, morale increased to 75
No increase for successful combat 10.

Reloaded and achieved a morale of 76 after 7 successful combats; no more increases in sucessful combats 8-10

Reloaded and achieved a morale of 75 after 8 successful combats; no morale increases in successful combats 9 and 10.

It seems that I can get to a morale of 75 or 76 with infantry in summer 1942. I will try some experiments with Pz divisions. If I read the rule book correctly, they have a NM of 85 in 1942 (70 + 15 bonus). I will see how high I can get if I can find a Pz division that starts with morale below the NM.

Bill

Edit: Sorry forgot to add the game version: 1.05.45

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Pelton, I know thinking before you post is something you rarely do, but it would be nice if you did so in the future just to make sure you're not wasting everybody's time more than you normally already do.

For starters: give some factual evidence that German national morale is 50 in 1941. I know what your response will be: you'll rant a bit, give some vague descriptions of what you're seeing, place some statement in bold but there won't be any actual facts. You'll repeat that every time someone asks you. Still, it would do a lot to restore the credibility you've lost if you would try to prove a point.

Aside from automatic morale increase being less likely the closer you are to national morale, German morale will go to the national morale over time. It just takes time.

Also: in those infantry unit screenshots you've broken down a large number of divisions and haven't filtered the Finns or support units out and are forgetting that the Germans get 46 infantry divisions with 80 morale or higher to begin with.

Think before you post, save us all some time.

German moral never gains a single pt above 50 no matter how far from the front, this is fact of which I gave supporting data before in a thread. yes try reading it helps before pointing fingers.

German national moral gravates to 50 as per JB answer in the past to my point that german national moral is 50.

German national moral is capped to 70 in 1942. HARD CAPPED son. I have also put up the data to back this up on this thread.

I as always provide piles of data and you guys do the personal attack thing as the standard 2 by 3 MO.

Again I have the data and you have?

Pelton

[ComradeP]

German moral never gains a single pt above 50 no matter how far from the front, this is fact of which I gave supporting data before in a thread.

No, you didn't.

German national moral is capped to 70 in 1942. HARD CAPPED son. I have also put up the data to back this up on this thread.

No and no, you didn't.

I as always provide piles of data and you guys do the personal attack thing as the standard 2 by 3 MO.
& Again I have the data and you have?

"Data" to you is "what I want to believe"

You also insult 2by3 in almost all of your posts, and then go and cry when someone becomes angry at you.

If you wouldn't be the kind of guy who would probably create tons of alternate accounts just to keep on ranting after you were banned, thus making a ban rather pointless, there are good grounds to ban you just for your personal anti-2by3 campaign.

What I try to present to you are facts.

There's a very substantial difference.

[Peltonx]

By design German moral will only go up based 100% on combat.

By design German moral in 1941 can go over national moral levels. I have the pics in this thread.

By design German moral is HARD CAPPED from 42 to 45. I have the pics to suport this in my thread.

So by design no matter how much better then historical the German player is doing he is punished.

And by design no matter how poorly the Russian player is doing he is rewarded.

It by design is a Russian built in I win button.

Check out Tarhunnas game to see the results. He did far far better then historical in all areas, KIA russians, factories taken, citys taken and land taken.

Katza game vs 76mm is headed the same way.

Again I am providing data and you?

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

German moral never gains a single pt above 50 no matter how far from the front, this is fact of which I gave supporting data before in a thread.

No, you didn't.

German national moral is capped to 70 in 1942. HARD CAPPED son. I have also put up the data to back this up on this thread.

No and no, you didn't.

I as always provide piles of data and you guys do the personal attack thing as the standard 2 by 3 MO.
& Again I have the data and you have?

"Data" to you is "what I want to believe"

You also insult 2by3 in almost all of your posts, and then go and cry when someone becomes angry at you.

If you wouldn't be the kind of guy who would probably create tons of alternate accounts just to keep on ranting after you were banned, thus making a ban rather pointless, there are good grounds to ban you just for your personal anti-2by3 campaign.

What I try to present to you are facts.

There's a very substantial difference.

What facts?

I have a thread full of facts and you have nothing to say other then I should be baned for providing data that backs up what I am saying.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: wmcalpine

Just tested German morale in 1942 with 10 combats with the 387th infantry division which starts at a morale of 68 in the blue scenario.

After 1 successful combat morale increased to 70
After 2 successful combats morale increased to 72
No increase for successful combats 3 and 4
After 5 successful combats morale increased to 74
No increase for successful combats 5,6,7,8
After successful combat 9, morale increased to 75
No increase for successful combat 10.

Reloaded and achieved a morale of 76 after 7 successful combats; no more increases in sucessful combats 8-10

Reloaded and achieved a morale of 75 after 8 successful combats; no morale increases in successful combats 9 and 10.

It seems that I can get to a morale of 75 or 76 with infantry in summer 1942. I will try some experiments with Pz divisions. If I read the rule book correctly, they have a NM of 85 in 1942 (70 + 15 bonus). I will see how high I can get if I can find a Pz division that starts with morale below the NM.

Bill

Edit: Sorry forgot to add the game version: 1.05.45

Very good stuff.

Thanks for your imput [&o]

[wmcalpine]

test to see if picture upload worked
Edit: It seemed to work. 387th after 1 successful combat

[wmcalpine]

387th after sucessful combat number 9

morale at 75.

[Peltonx]

quote:ComradeP

German moral never gains a single pt above 50 no matter how far from the front, this is fact of which I gave supporting data before in a thread.

No, you didn't.

tm.asp?m=2938021

[mmarquo]

Pelton,

Up to your old tricks, again, hmm? Here is the full paragraph including what you conveinantly neglected to post. I parsed it out so you can perhaps understand it better.

"9.1.1. Ground Unit Morale Changes

I. The morale of a unit will increase when it is successful in combat (holds on defense or retreats the defender when attacking).

II. The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:

a. The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.
b. The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
c. The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).
d. The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.
Ground unit morale will decrease due to losing battles, suffering from air interdiction, being in an isolated state, and Axis morale losses due to the first winter rules (22.3). There is also a morale penalty for Finnish units that move south of specific hexes on the map area (19.1.1).
e. Retreated units lose one morale point, which is increased to a loss of two morale points if the leader Morale check fails."

So there are 2 main ways for morale to increase/decrease

1. Success in combat; AND
2. During the logistics phase for the 5 reasons stated.

Your empirical statement that German morale never gains a point over 50 is only true for conditions a and b under condition 2, other than than that, morale can and does increase towards the national morale level which is well over 50.

It would behoove you to actually read and try to process the rules.

Happy Holidays,

Marquo

[wmcalpine]

I did reload and run several times, and did get different end morales after 10 successful combats (75,76,75). This is definately a small sample, so your mileage may vary.

Bill

PS Merry Christmas to all

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1

I managed to get the Wiking Motorized Infantry Division destroyed once. Overextended position trying to pocket a bunch of Soviet divisions in the Caucasus by creeping regimental breakdowns of the division through the Mts. 1942 north of Tbilisi. The Wiking regiments were all basically isolated one or two hexes into the mountains because of the difficulty in tracing supply through Mt hexes. Anyway, to make a long story longer, my opponent figured out what I was attempting and managed to scrap togeather a couple mountain divisions for a counterattack and succeeded in killing the whole division.

Wiking reappears a couple turns later on the western map edge for the mandatory six week refit. I was watching it's refit progress pretty intently because the SS Motorized Inf. Divisions are key formations for the Germans. It came back at Morale 60. I think it upgraded to a Panzer Grenadier Division during its six week refit. Morale remained at 60 during the six week rebuild period. But the low morale after the rebuild period made complete sense to me. As it's pretty worthless as an offensive tool at that morale level, I decided to leave it in Berlin in Refit mode for eight more turns hoping it would begin to increase it's morale level. Nothing. It stayed at Morale 60.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

Up to your old tricks, again, hmm? Here is the full paragraph including what you conveinantly neglected to post. I parsed it out so you can perhaps understand it better.

"9.1.1. Ground Unit Morale Changes

I. The morale of a unit will increase when it is successful in combat (holds on defense or retreats the defender when attacking).

II. The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:

a. The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.
b. The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
c. The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).
d. The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.
Ground unit morale will decrease due to losing battles, suffering from air interdiction, being in an isolated state, and Axis morale losses due to the first winter rules (22.3). There is also a morale penalty for Finnish units that move south of specific hexes on the map area (19.1.1).
e. Retreated units lose one morale point, which is increased to a loss of two morale points if the leader Morale check fails."

So there are 2 main ways for morale to increase/decrease

1. Success in combat; AND
2. During the logistics phase for the 5 reasons stated.

Your empirical statement that German morale never gains a point over 50 is only true for conditions a and b under condition 2, other than than that, morale can and does increase towards the national morale level which is well over 50.

It would behoove you to actually read and try to process the rules.

Happy Holidays,

Marquo

It doesn't I have tested it an so have others.

You can take the time and test it yourself as have others.

It is what it is. Broken by design.

[Peltonx]

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

It's probably this paragraph:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of
the national morale but not more than the country’s national morale (Example: German national
morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

There is no requirement (refit, non-adjecency, distance to enemy) mentioned for this in 9.1.1


The exact requirements are a mystery. Supposedly, it's a complicated set of checks that have not been made known to the testers. However, my bolded bit should be kept in mind, and that it is representing a maximum gain, for this particular aspect of morale gain, given the best of conditions and lucky die rolls.



I have personally tested this and the results are 1.4% chance of gaining a single point of moral above 50.

Jamiam is right it is a mystery.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

Russian moral gains every turn, German 1.4% chance of gaining a single pt per turn. I am not the only one seeing these results.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Maybe what Pelton is trying to say is this:

On Paper, the average Morale Gap (difference in National Morale) bw Soviets and Germans is around 30 in the early game, give or take (75/70 vs. a sliding scale of 50-40).

Over time, the actual morale gap between Germans and Soviets, and for that matter between Germans and their own low-morale Allies, is much less than that.

This is because almost any unit can get into the mid-50s in Morale/Experience, simply by resting, regardless of National Morale. This means that Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, and Soviet units can rountinely EXCEED their own national morale by 15 points or so, simply by resting. Because the Soviets have alot of units, they should easily be able to "park" a number of units, rotate, and raise the average morale into the 50s.

The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s. The Germans will never exceed their National Morale on rest alone, so in 1942 70 is the ceiling no matter when, except through combat.

So, though the "Paper" gap in September of 1942 is 30 points, the actual gap between Wehrmacht infantry, and Soviet/Axis Ally infantry, is more like 10 points.

I think this is what he is trying to say.

National Morale would be more meaningful if there was a "push" and "pull" toward the National Morale figure. Meaning, low-morale units were much less capable of gaining morale simply by sitting, and units with high national morale would predicably get there if they are out of combat, maybe for sure gaining a point a turn until the National Morale is reached.

Such a change would clearly favor the Germans in 1942, so that would have to be intended

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I tested it and out of 38 units only 4 gained moral in 4 turns and JB lowered that number to 2 because 2 units were below 50 so they gain back moral to 50 asap.

So basicly the ratio was 36 units over 4 turns and 2 gained moral. 1 pt each.

2 out of 144 or 1.4% chance. I desided that they be better digging trenchs then tring to win the lottory.

I know I am bias, but I am just guessing that Russian units top out to the nation moral level allot faster then 1.4%

Pelton