command control

slammer · Post by **slammer** » Fri Aug 18, 2000 7:45 pm

Paul

I must confess I have not read through the manual yet, only paragraphs here and there.
I think using C&C or not and becoming "lazy" can depend on how you approach the game. I believe I adhere to the 3 principles you outline and spend alot of time " upfront" before a single turn is played plotting strategy. I base alot of the way I play on a series of fine articles on tactics written by a member of wild bills gang who unfortunatly his name escapes me now of course. One example in the way I approach the game for instance if I know the final turn is approaching I am not going to rush a truck to seize an objective surrounded by the enemy to get the points and win. I'll get reading the manual.

orc4hire · Post by **orc4hire** » Fri Aug 18, 2000 8:30 pm

Requires you to keep your forces too tight? Heavens. If I recall correctly (I don't have my references here) German doctrine called for an infantry battalion to attack on a front of something like 400 meters. About 8 hexes of front for a 3 company attack.

While poking around today I came across this: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/30-2/30-2_2.htm
It would describe an SPWAW action as well as the actual event. The discussion segement after the action narrative is especially relevent to the discussion on hand. Here's an excerpt:

*****
The company commander should have been the key figure in the final phase of the attack; he should have been the spirit of a two-platoon assault which never materialized. Instead, remaining five hundred yards behind with the base of fire, he was so unable to control the two leading platoons that one of them even became lost and completely ineffective.
*****

Hmm, a whole platoon out of contact and unable to move.... How unrealistic.

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 3:12 am

It took me awhile to get used to C&C. Prior to SPWAW I had played a lot of SP1 and 2 but not much SP3. Now that I have gotten used to it I feel it is a crucial element of the game. In SP1 and 2 (especially with older units with poor or nonexistent radios) the overall commander had WAY too much control over his units.
All I can say to players who are frustrated with C&C is to keep trying. It is often frustrating but so was commanding a Brigade in WW2, and at least here no one suffers (only our egos) from our mistakes.

Scipio Africanus · Post by **Scipio Africanus** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 3:47 am

I love C&C as it forces units to have some level of cohesion in order to maintain tactical awareness. I use a lot of pre plan orders (flags) so that units will have something to fall back on if things go poorly and they lose contact. Sometimes individual units don't do what I want them to do, but this is the way it should be. I like that a unit 200 yards from another won't know what to do (which doesn't look very far on the map, but it's plenty far to lose communication unless the other squad is jumping up and down and waving semaphore flags).

C&C also makes a battle between Nationalist and Communist Chinese look completely different than one between US and Germany (Chinese must often move their tanks very slowly to maintain contact- result: they aren't as tactically flexible as the Germans, making one adapt one's tactics to the situation at hand).

Cheers,

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Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 4:14 am

After having consulted the manual and learning how C&C works, I (we) wouldn't think of going back now... that would feel like turning the Morale setting off

.

There is a feature though, (regarding unit buying) which allows cheating C&C, but that isn't a problem unless you play with some suspicious company.

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-Sallah, where's my father?
-They have him, in the belly of that Steel Beast.

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited August 18, 2000).]

Skotty · Post by **Skotty** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 4:24 am

My question is does the AI work differently whether C&C is on or off in regards to its own units?

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 4:43 am

The C&C option, to me, is a natural progression from total control in operational games to the nitty gritty on the battlefield. I've seen this in some of the US Civil War games I own, wherein you have to maintain contact with the various hierarchical levels of command (regiment to brigade, brigade to division, division to corps). It seems to me to be one of the most realistic and challenging features of SPWaW. HOWEVER, it also seems to be the most frustrating part for those of us used to just point, click and move. THIS is where the historical lessons come in, and why games of this nature are used in actual combat leadership training courses, albeit with modern weapons and 3D simulators. I wouldn't think of NOT using C&C , unless a particular scenario is designed with the option turned off. Glenn.
PS To Wild Bill, I'm frankly surprised that you disagreed with the majority of us. Can you give us a little elaboration, and maybe a comment about the training simulations and their relation to commercial wargames? Further addendum: There's a great site run by Jim Dunnigan (one of the truly Mt Olympean figures in wargames) and Al Nofi. http://www.strategypage.com. There's a good article about the uses of "commercial" games as training devices. I think I'll try to e-mail Mr. Dunnigan and see if he will review SPWaW 3.0. Anyone with me on that idea?
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"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Boot em, don't spatter em')"--Heinz Guderian

[This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited August 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited August 19, 2000).]

Raindem · Post by **Raindem** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 3:26 pm

C&C is my favorite part of the game and I keep it on all the time. It forces you to plan your advances and objectives better, instead of running helter skelter all over the map. I also think it adds greatly to the realism, which should be the #1 goal of a game like this.