At it again - vicberg(axis) vs. Larry Larizona55 (Sov)

[Q-Ball]

Not sure why your opponent is hanging around Zhitomir so long. He needed to get out of there a couple turns ago.

If he doesnt' withdraw quicker, you can eventually go for a massive Kiev pocket.

Looks like he has already hung around too long in a few areas, and gotten guys pocketed

[vicberg]

He's fighting very forward and, yes, gotten lots of troops pocketed. It's been SOOO tempting to go after a Kiev pocket, but there's been opportunities for the south and Kiev is still a possibility. I can only guess that he's focused on moving industry rather than troops.

His saving grace right now is I messed up my rail lines. I have two FBDs doing LVOV to Vinnista, another around Odessa.

In future games, I'm converting rails out of Romania and not Germany in the south. Counting rail hexes from the German border to Vinnista is somewhere around 28 and 20 from Romania, so it saves a turn (since you can't start from Romania until turn 2). I'll also focus two FBDs on the line. Romania -> Vinnista (or possibly keeping south of the city, depending on focus, there's an west->east rail to the south that can eventually split north, east and south).

[vicberg]

It strikes me that playing Soviets is not easy, especially first year. It seems like an organizational nightmare and difficult to put up a decent defense first few turns. Make one mistake and it costs a bunch of troops. Only real defense seems to be run to river and forget moving industry. Rail as much out as many troops as you can.

I started a 3rd game and my opponent put up a solid defense in the south but left gaps and I was able to punch through and isolate the entire Soviet army in the south, from the swamps down to Romania. He has a few troops in around Southern Romania and around Odessa, but that's it between my panzers and the Dnepr, according to recon. I'll start another AAR when I get his turn back (turn 2).

[vicberg]

Everthing above for turn 7 is now invalid. We had to redo turn 7 because of the hacker issues. So here's the turn. It was actually better than before.

Push for Leningrad. Still no solid lines yet. I elected to threaten the northern ports with a corp from PZG4. It can still swing around south if needed. I'm not showing Finish front, but he has active defenses still in place there along the entire front. So a push across the northern Finish-Soviet border might yield a number of cutoff troops.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

It strikes me that playing Soviets is not easy

Ya think? But you do have to rail industry...starting turn 3. The first two turns everything should go to troop movements. After that you have enough to handle evacuations and shells, which are cheap to move around.

[vicberg]

16th Army plus PZG3 and elements of PZG2 push for Moscow. A couple of pockets. The swamp pocket was from the turn before. A second pocket has been formed.

[vicberg]

AGC

Push for Somlensk and another small pocket.

[vicberg]

AGS, Nothern Front.

A fairly large pocket formed by PZG2. I'm now threatening to cutoff Kiev.

[vicberg]

AGS, Southern Front.

PZG1 surrounds Kharkov, bags that city to the northeast (forgot the name) and is ready for the push on Stalino. Supporting infantry have cross the Dnepr and will help with the push next turn.

In the far south, the Romanians closed the Odessa pocket and armies are moving towards the Crimia and to support PZG1.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: vicberg

It strikes me that playing Soviets is not easy

Ya think? But you do have to rail industry...starting turn 3. The first two turns everything should go to troop movements. After that you have enough to handle evacuations and shells, which are cheap to move around.

The mobility of the Panzers is just incredible. In my disaster game against Cheerfullyinsane, which I haven't updated in a while because of absolute embarassment, he was able to start forming solid lines around turn 4 or 5, I believe, and just kept up solid lines (didn't care about terrain) and I really struggled to make progress. It was my true first game and I've learned a bit since then, but still, it was quite effective. Combine mulling into this (which I don't do because divisions didn't switch HQs every week, so it strikes me not quite as an exploit, but certainly not realistic by any sense) and I could see an unstoppable German army the first year.

I've done this with one HQ buildup, which was done THIS turn. So this is just stock and I messed up my rail lines and am behind on them. Scary if I really tried to chain or otherwise maximize current supply model better.

[smokindave34]

Did you bag any industry in Kharkov (T-34 factories)? You've set yourself up nicely in the south. I'd consder having 2nd panzer group head north and cut the rail lines to all those units west of Kiev - they'll never get out if you do.

[Flaviusx]

You have to picket aggressively, use reserve stance, and keep your main line of resistance out of easy reach of any mobile units within buildup range. It's fairly easy to tell what is eligible for buildup.

Up north you can do a forward defense from the getgo if you commit your reserve armies in that direction thanks to the terrain. (And by "up north" I mean north of Vitebsk.) Down south...you will need to flat out run at some point. Usually by turn 6 or so. Between the Lvov opener and good management of logistics the Axis has a free run there until the rasputitsa more or less.

I've given up trying to defend forward in the Smolensk corridor. This used to be possible, now, not so much. I just throw junk in the center and picket the German and try to slow down the infantry as much as possible and force the panzers to operate without them, but your main line of resistance is going to be much further east. Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk is the first real place you can fight it out on a solid line in the center, and behind that you need to dig in around Moscow. It's easy for the Axis to push rails well past Smolensk by mid/late summer and you have to plan on fighting it out near Moscow for a half dozen clear weather turns or so if the German wants the place.

[Mehring]

Flavius, problem is, maybe because fatigue doesn't work as it should, the Germans can use all sorts of tricks to keep their advance in supply, which equals active. Bombers are now primarily fuel transports and delivering at the start of the turn shortens flight time for them and the Ju 52s. One counter measure which may work, and it would be a good argument for not disbanding every air base in sight, is cheese bombing German units to 'red' supply with lots of little raids. As with the old air war Luftwaffe nerf, until fatigue/logistics is fixed, one good cheese deserves another.

I agree with Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk as first MLR, my games always gravitate towards such a line, helped by delaying actions on the Berezina and upper Dnepr. It also gives some divisions time to raise their morale.

Up north, I recently tried to make a go of Leningrad, committing large numbers of green divisions. All the same, Pskov went on T2 and I should have lost Leningrad on turn 4. Don't know why I didn't, maybe all those division shells scared my opponent, but it made little difference in the end. With a fort on T1 (16AP, ouch), construction, doubtless city folk, regular units and sappers all digging on the east Neva hex it was only at level 3 by the time Germans were adjacent. T7 or 8 IIRC.

South, I'd say expect to lose a few delaying them to reach the Dnepr, turn Odessa into a thorn for their side if you can, but not if it compromises Crimea defences. Odessa can delay rail conversion along the coast and a little inland. If inadequately screened, a breakout is possible.

Dig behind the Dnepr and fight any bridgehead tooth and nail cos after that it's a long run even if your legs will carry you. Every river line is a possible pause and dig point.

My experience doesn't support your reserve and picket arguments, though. It can be useful, yes, but not a game saver. With Zhukov in STAVKA and 5/6 initiative leaders all down the line and close to the fighting, my reserve activation was minimal. When it did occur, it improved loss ratios but seldom if ever turned retreat into hold. On the good side, none of my reserves routed and some were only mid 40s morale. But balanced against morale gain from refit, reserve status, particularly for divisions and bigger, where the chances of activation are even more slender, is not a panacea and its use should, in my view, be balanced with other considerations.

Picketing likewise. Yes, it does slow the enemy at a cost, but what slowed my current opponent much more was his own determination not to eliminate 40+ pocketed divisions before November. I'll never get those divisions back, but I doubt he'll get another good crack at Moscow, Tambov or Lipetsk. I'm not saying never picket at all, but when a couple of weeks digging reserve lines will bring them back up to useful combat levels, I'm not going to chuck away even high 30s morale units unless I see an important gain. I'm pretty sure I saw a division gain SEVEN morale in a week. Unusual, but if I'm not mistaken, it happened. Experience seems to grow no more than 1 point a week though.

[Flaviusx]

I actually have a real shot at holding Leningrad in my current game. Partially because AGN didn't get reinforced and partially because reserves have really come through for me in a big way by Leningrad. As of turn 14 I am still holding the Leningrad-Novgorod line.

Air resupply is altogether too generous in this game.

I do not understand the enormous disparities in results people are reporting so far as reserves go. They are activating incredibly often for me. Smokingdave is getting very good results in his 41 game, but less so in his 43 game. On the Axis side I'm pretty sure that Idaho and Ketza got excellent results with them, but Pelton claims they are useless.

Bob swears by it and has been perfecting it with the Axis longer than anybody.

I myself recently loaded the 43 GC and played a couple of turns out as the Axis just to see how good reserves could be for them. After sacking Zietzler for Guderian reserve activation was amazingly responsive without doing anything else to the German C&C.

[Mehring]

Yes, a pz corps from Hoths group joining AGN is pretty standard in my experience as it does tip the balance of forces more than it's early employment with AGC. Likewise, one of Guderian's corps heading south for a bit. AGC can afford the loss.

I wouldn't go as far as to say reserves are useless, far from it, the threat of them disuades attackers from chancing it, which equates to less attacks. Now in my winter offensive, I'm able to disrupt a lot of German reserves with prep bombing and para drops behind enemy lines and usually beat them when they do intervene, usually regiments. Unlike mine, they are activating quite a lot though which helps my recce.

On the activation mystery, I'm careful not to overload Armies, but Front's are often at 1 1/2 X command load. Can't see how anyone's Fronts wouldn't be overloaded in 1941 though. I'll pay more attention to movement points left over at turn end and see if their over use has anything to do with it, but I suspect not.

On air supply, I was wondering where the transports get their supplies/fuel from. Does it come out of thin air? I'm glad to see they're working on some kind of throughput brake for WitW

[vicberg]

Turn 8

Active defense of Finland. Playing a little small-ball on the pockets.

[vicberg]

More pockets. I've moved PZG3 south for better terrain

[vicberg]

I hate weak pockets. They waste time. Larry was able to resupply both pockets and I have to basically waste a turn tightening the noose.

[AFV]

He has thrown away so many units I don't see how he can ever recover. This is beginning a vicious cycle, he will be putting units forward before they are ready because of the desperate need, but because they are not ready you will be able to make more pockets, which in turn he will bring units up even quicker, etc. Your other opponent is in far better shape just by totally running away. Which is what Larry needs to do now.

I wouldnt worry about weak pockets, as long as you get the goodies, even if an extra turn later.

[vicberg]

You are probably right. There's still not solid lines anywhere along the front. His losses are approaching 2.2 million and there's still plenty of campaign season left. That's not good for him.

Turn 9

AGN

Waiting for rail lines and pushed a corp from PZG4 north to cutoff rail lines into Leningrad. Nothing between that corp and the ports to the north. I'm expecting Leningrad to be completely isolated by next turn.