The Ultimate Warship

[Commander Stormwolf]

Even without the modifications,
something like the historical AM would be sufficient
(can built two AM for the price of one STo)

2xSeiran
6xTorpedo tubes

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
logic: dissuade commanders from engaging in surface duels
and firing AA at patrols planes when more advanced weapon systems
are available, use the displacementt to improve the hangar size and torpedo battery

That only works because the system doesn't adequately model the fact that WWII subs are surface ships with some limited ability to submerge. Prior to the snorkel, IRL subs had to spend so much time on the surface that they needed the AA battery, and the Sen Tokus would have been even slower to submerge than most. Ditching the AA battery just isn't practical. Submarine AA armaments steadily increased during the war, that should tell you what the real pressures were.

[Canoerebel]

Okay, if Japan gets those because Yamoto gets his way, then the Allies get to follow through with that program to release bats that would carry incendiary devices into Japanese cities.  Can you imagine the thrill of AE with a button to click:  "Release Fire Bats."
 
[8|]

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Okay, if Japan gets those because Yamoto gets his way, then the Allies get to follow through with that program to release bats that would carry incendiary devices into Japanese cities.  Can you imagine the thrill of AE with a button to click:  "Release Fire Bats."

[8|]

Don't forget the specially trained killer ninja hamsters as well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfE1qy1K1kM

[Canoerebel]

Miller's not being honest about his weapon of choice.  This is a link to the button he would like to push:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1FrqwZyKw

[Commander Stormwolf]

Sen Toku had snorkels

in this doctrine they loiter 50-100m below the surface while search planes find the enemy,
surface and launch torpedo seaplanes, and submerge to avoid counter-attacks

distances in the pacific are a bit larger... less threat from LBA than in europe..
and even patrol planes can be stopped by float fighters on CAP

also i am convinced that attaching a midget sub could be used to distract destroyers
and allow the sen toku to escape 50% of asw attacks

it is little complicated, but a fleet of 10 of them can carry 40 ac
it is not major military threat (and CV CAP can stop the strike package easily)

but really how does one go about fighting this concept... (besides covering the whole ocean with 1000 fletcher DDs)

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
but really how does one go about fighting this concept... (besides covering the whole ocean with 1000 fletcher DDs)

I imagine that unless the floatplanes were on a one way trip, the subs would get nailed on the surface by angry CV return strikes, while their floatplanes would be slaughtered by CAP. How easy would it be to combine flight operations along with submerging? How long would it take to surface and get things airborne, or retrieve floatplanes? If it was a one way trip then this would be greatly simplified but I imagine that would be exceptional.

I also imagine that they would suffer greatly in poor weather and be limited to operations when the sea is like a glassy lake. I suspect it'd suck loading up the torpedoes on a floatplane moored to a tiny lil dinky submarine (yeah I know its big but compared to a Pacific wave its small) which probably does not have amazing seahandling.

And finally I imagine in the late war - which is when these things were around - they would be handily slaughtered by Allied ASW groups. A couple of CVEs would essentially end the threat from flying targets, and then the attached DDs would nail the sub. Though AE does not really handle CVEs in an antisubmarine role very well in my experience.

[Commander Stormwolf]

These are good questions,

advantages of on way: can use detachable floats giving a 20% boost to the performance
disadvantage: ac and pilots are single use only

if the floatplanes are expected to return:

submarines launch the floatplanes via catapult
loading torpedo is done ahead of time in the hangar

if attacking a merchant convoy, no counter-attack is possible (unless CVEs are escorting)
if attacking carriers, and the sub is detected,the surviving torpedo planes can land on the water or circle around
while the submarine submerges and hides (making it immune to counter-attack)

worst case scenario: the floatplanes and crews are abandoned (or picked up by smaller subs in the task force)

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
if attacking carriers, and the sub is detected,the surviving torpedo planes can land on the water or circle around
while the submarine submerges and hides (making it immune to counter-attack)

worst case scenario: the floatplanes and crews are abandoned (or picked up by smaller subs in the task force)

Presumably float planes hanging around would be a big red flag for any ASW patrolling aircraft, so things would rapidly turn into a one way trip.

Also what about command and control? Presumably these subs will have radios and will need to exert some measure of control over its airgroup. Especially if you got 10 of these babies working together. Assuming the sub is making a lot of radio noise won't the Allies be picking that up, thus ruining some of the stealth advantages? Imagine the trouble coordinating the strike package. I can't really see how you could do it without a significant cost to the stealth aspects of the subs.

I read somewhere that in the late war Allied ASW scored 100% kill rates against U-boats once they were detected and ASW assets were on station and in a position to act. So it might be that the advantage of being a submersible carrier in 1944 is not as great as you might think. They might work out better for the specific position the Japanese were in as a sort of guerilla carrier raiding supply lines, but I'm pretty sure there would be a swift response involving CVEs if that were to happen IRL.

[Terminus]

Yes, because a submarine diving could never be attacked... Maybe you could read a history book or two?

[Terminus]

There's a good reason why nobody but the IJN pursued the submarine-launched floatplane. IT'S A BAD IDEA!

[Commander Stormwolf]

They might work out better for the specific position the Japanese were in as a sort of guerilla carrier raiding supply lines,

precisely as intended, they're not meant to fight CV battles

[Commander Stormwolf]

but mathematically it's not a bad investment

if 10 submarines cost 50,000 tons of steel
it is the same as 1 CV + 2CA + 8DD

.... their best use is still to force the USN to divert resources, SBD on ASW and DD in ASW units
weakening the CV defences , and allowing the IJN carriers to fight an easier carrier battle

[Commander Stormwolf]

also by forcing the USN to assign CVE to every single convoy it would slow down operations,
and weaken the forces available on the front line

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Okay, if Japan gets those because Yamoto gets his way, then the Allies get to follow through with that program to release bats that would carry incendiary devices into Japanese cities.  Can you imagine the thrill of AE with a button to click:  "Release Fire Bats."

[8|]

When I finish my mod it will have fire bats in it.....


I am just sick of all those bettys and nells carrying torpedoes and feel that it needs balance...

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


also by forcing the USN to assign CVE to every single convoy it would slow down operations,
and weaken the forces available on the front line

Not really, they will just divert a dozen or so from the Atlantic. [;)]

[Historiker]

The ultimate warship is the rowboat-archer.
Cheap, easy to produce everywhere in Asia, easy to disguise and almost undetectable by radar!

[sandman455]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There's a good reason why nobody but the IJN pursued the submarine-launched floatplane. IT'S A BAD IDEA!

You aren't even close. Wiki it and you will be shocked.

And when one of the I-400's was captured the US, they scuttled it rather than let anyone else look at it which they were required to do. The Russians were pissed.

The real issue with the silly concept was that no one except the Japanese could build decent float planes that could fit into the boats. And even then there wasn't really enough AV support infrastructure to do much of anything but recon and search. I guess Yamamoto (it was his idea) thought if you built one big enough it be viable. He was wrong.

Patrol AC wouldn't be much of an issue - it was a mean flak boat and would have more than held its own against a patrol aircraft or two. You'd need some surface units to deal with it. That's were being a sub would be handy - submerge and vacate the area. The I-400 had some serious batteries. I believe I read somewhere she could maintain a slow 3-4 knots for a couple days. When she goes sinker, you wouldn't be able to find her with the air ASW of the time. By the time a surface ship with active sonar showed up it's over. You need a datum that is minutes old, not hours or days. She'll just pop up the snorkle 60 miles away and be on her way.

Really the huge boats would most likely fall victim to their own kind. Catch her cruising along fat-dumb-and-happy. She'll get bagged just like a lot smaller boats on all sides.

As for their purpose - none. The strike capability of even a flotilla would be pitiful. Nope you would need something else. . . . or maybe if . . .
someone had listened to Tadayoshi in 1934 or at least Nishina in 1939. Then you might be able conjure up something ludicrous and comical.

[8|]

It's a fantasy mod I'm working on. As a JFB and gamer. . . I cannot accept defeat.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Yes, because a submarine diving could never be attacked... Maybe you could read a history book or two?

Aw come on "Termi". The fellow has obviously read at least 5 comic books about WW II. Why spoil his fantasy world?