War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
Also, I think the morale increase means the ? mech Corps near the north Rumanian border can crack the Lvov Pocket now. I ran and re ran this attack in a PBEM game ( after I had finished and emailed the turn of course) and every time the Pz Regiments were pushed aside. I am assuming the three Pz Regmient blocking move is the standard for most Lvov pockets, so it's days may be over, at least on Turn One.

Morale increase? What have I missed?

From Flavius:

Soviet at start morale is randomized, and each game will yield different results for your starting units. Sometimes dramatically so. Although on average you can expect Western and NW Fronts to be garbage and SW Front and the interior reserve armies to be somewhat better.

Yes, but that was several upgrades ago, wasn't it? I thought there was a new morale change that I'd missed.

[Joel Billings]

Yes, I'm showing the randomness was brought in back on November 2 (in public beta 1.05.39).

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The design decision was made a long time ago to allow the Soviets to build and manage their army development over time after 1941. Of course the editor can be used to try to create a historical Soviet reinforcment system which together with some house rules (altering APs and Soviet build ability) could alter this dynamic. While we'd be interested in improvements in the 1941 reinforcement list (which is the part that is fixed, other than the destroyed units returning), I'm not sure that's what you're talking about, so you'd need to be more specific regarding what you're looking to develop. You're welcome to email 2by3@2by3games.com with more specifics.

It seems that the recent changes in AP draining expenses (the Soviets now have to manually disband tank batallions and create regiments, and also it appears that nearly all of the aircraft upgrades have disappeared meaning that if you want aircraft other than biplanes flying in your units by 1945 then you have to spend a lot of APs manually upgrading each air unit, plus the minimum AP cost to transfer a unit is now 1, up from 0) are starting to get incompatible with creating and managing army development.

Since we now have to spend extra APs to do all of these things, as well as build more HQs to spread the divisions more thinly since the CC changes, wouldn't it make sense to add more APs to the Soviet side? Or reduce the cost of some other things such as transferring HQs between fronts, building forts, assigning SUs, disbanding units, REACTIVATING UNITS FROM STATIC MODE, etc?

[Denniss]

Which soviet aircraft upgrade paths have been removed?
There haven't been any for I-15 or I-16, we can't set them for MiG-3 and LaGG-3 as the factories diverted to multiple other projects.
I had thought about adding paths for I-15/I-16 to a 1942 aircraft type but I'm a bit limited in soviet air unit organizations and opt to not include it yet. I'm always open for suggestions backed up by historical data, maybe there's a valid upgrade path I could use for the biplanes.

[Flaviusx]

Denniss, right now the only fighter bombers that will automatically upgrade are the relatively few Yak-1 regiments you receive in 41. Getting all the biplanes, Migs and Laggs into newer models is a huge AP sink, probably close to 200 APs.

So far as the tank battalions go, I think this latest change makes them not worth building at all.

[Denniss]

As said, we can't install upgrade paths for MiG and LaGG as the upgrade path also affects factories - both MiG and LaGG-3 (except one) produced different aircraft after their initial run ended or after relocation.

[Great_Ajax]

The Tank Battalion change came around because there were still independant tank battalions fielded by the Soviets during Bagration. Originally, the game started automatically upgrading the Tank Battalions into Regiments in 1942 which meant the Tank Battalions completely disappeared and couldn't be used in any scenarios in 43 & 44 because they would automatically start upgrading. In researching this further, I found no examples of Tank Battalion expanding into their own Tank Regiments.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Denniss, right now the only fighter bombers that will automatically upgrade are the relatively few Yak-1 regiments you receive in 41. Getting all the biplanes, Migs and Laggs into newer models is a huge AP sink, probably close to 200 APs.

So far as the tank battalions go, I think this latest change makes them not worth building at all.

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Denniss, right now the only fighter bombers that will automatically upgrade are the relatively few Yak-1 regiments you receive in 41. Getting all the biplanes, Migs and Laggs into newer models is a huge AP sink, probably close to 200 APs.

So far as the tank battalions go, I think this latest change makes them not worth building at all.

Heresy i know, but I find the Red Air Force composition essentially irrelevant - it is what it is - a huge blunt instrument. For all I care they can kamikaze themselves into the Panzers - is there setting for that ? Just kidding. I leave it on auto upgrade, take what I get and pound the LW and Ost Heer mercilessly. I only expend AP to manually control the upgrade of Transport aircraft - now there is something to think about before I am pilloried.

I am very grateful for the volunteer work to make the technical aircraft abilities as accurate as possible. Thank you Denniss

Now, the tank battalion bit is going to force a rethink, especially as my Axis opponent ( our 3rd GC together) is kicking my too agggressive Red ar*e, and I have become lazy in my SU selection.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The Tank Battalion change came around because there were still independant tank battalions fielded by the Soviets during Bagration. Originally, the game started automatically upgrading the Tank Battalions into Regiments in 1942 which meant the Tank Battalions completely disappeared and couldn't be used in any scenarios in 43 & 44 because they would automatically start upgrading. In researching this further, I found no examples of Tank Battalion expanding into their own Tank Regiments.

Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...

For those of us wanting an historical OOB, it is a perplexing pain in the butt to create one.

If the intention of this change was to allow for the use to a handful of Tank Bns in 1944, why not create a "B" TOE Tank Bn for optional use (ie: scenario design) that doesn't upgrade to a Regt?

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Schmart
Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...

For those of us wanting an historical OOB, it is a perplexing pain in the butt to create one.

If the intention of this change was to allow for the use to a handful of Tank Bns in 1944, why not create a "B" TOE Tank Bn for optional use (ie: scenario design) that doesn't upgrade to a Regt?

Alternatively just eliminate the AP cost to disband a support unit, or eliminate the AP cost to disband a unit that's marked as "obsolete" in the OOB. Mark the Tank Bns as obsolete on a certain date and the Soviet player can just disband them for free and build regiments and/or brigades. The actual tanks will cycle through the pool as they usually do.

Actually the AP system in this game has now become so complex that I'd be inclined to throw it away and start again.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Denniss, right now the only fighter bombers that will automatically upgrade are the relatively few Yak-1 regiments you receive in 41. Getting all the biplanes, Migs and Laggs into newer models is a huge AP sink, probably close to 200 APs.

So far as the tank battalions go, I think this latest change makes them not worth building at all.

Heresy i know, but I find the Red Air Force composition essentially irrelevant - it is what it is - a huge blunt instrument. For all I care they can kamikaze themselves into the Panzers - is there setting for that ? Just kidding. I leave it on auto upgrade, take what I get and pound the LW and Ost Heer mercilessly. I only expend AP to manually control the upgrade of Transport aircraft - now there is something to think about before I am pilloried.

I am very grateful for the volunteer work to make the technical aircraft abilities as accurate as possible. Thank you Denniss

Now, the tank battalion bit is going to force a rethink, especially as my Axis opponent ( our 3rd GC together) is kicking my too agggressive Red ar*e, and I have become lazy in my SU selection.

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work. By mid 1943 at the latest you'll be stuck with literally hundreds of air regiments flying obsolete aircraft in single digits as the pools run dry. They will never transition over to modern airframes unless you spend a fortune to shift them over to the Yak and La upgrade paths.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The Tank Battalion change came around because there were still independant tank battalions fielded by the Soviets during Bagration. Originally, the game started automatically upgrading the Tank Battalions into Regiments in 1942 which meant the Tank Battalions completely disappeared and couldn't be used in any scenarios in 43 & 44 because they would automatically start upgrading. In researching this further, I found no examples of Tank Battalion expanding into their own Tank Regiments.

Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...

For those of us wanting an historical OOB, it is a perplexing pain in the butt to create one.

If the intention of this change was to allow for the use to a handful of Tank Bns in 1944, why not create a "B" TOE Tank Bn for optional use (ie: scenario design) that doesn't upgrade to a Regt?

Don't build the battalions, imo. It's just not worth the bother now.

[Helpless]

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work...

It works if you low on stock. Use your AF and you won't have such problem.

[Helpless]

Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...

I agree. It was good compromise. Big chuck on STBn were converted to the Regiments. Add another TOE(OB) or using locked GD can be a solution here.

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The point here is that autoupgrade won't work. By mid 1943 at the latest you'll be stuck with literally hundreds of air regiments flying obsolete aircraft in single digits as the pools run dry. They will never transition over to modern airframes unless you spend a fortune to shift them over to the Yak and La upgrade paths.

What may also be misleading is the size upgrade for many/most soviet airgroups, this eats up available pilot/aircraft slots so the engine starts to empty and then disband airgroups flying old equipment.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work...

It works if you low on stock. Use your AF and you won't have such problem.

I have never seen it happen, Pavel, and I make a point of running to the ground the regiments with I-class fighters in particular.

They linger forever even with pools down to single digits. Only by manually upgrading can you force them off these frames.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Don't build the battalions, imo. It's just not worth the bother now.

I'll still build them, I just won't upgrade to the latest beta Eventually I'll have to upgrade and at that point I'll just edit the GC scenario data to add a Tank Bn upgrade path for my own games

In all seriousness, it is a shame that building a historical Russian army is "just not worth the bother" in regards to many units and formations.

[M60A3TTS]

I find the whole air war a disappointment, but that ground has been marched over thousands of times now. The Red Air Force can grow to 5x the size of the Luftwaffe and the only thing that changes is a similar loss of airframes on the Soviet side.
Re: replacements, the situation with the IL-2 is typical, you go from IL-2 to IL-2M to IL-2M3 with replacement aircraft piled up in the pools and few if any older regiments get swapped out for newer models. So the player has to spend APs to do it.

[Denniss]

While checking soviet aircraft data and production I stumbled onto a collection of soviet aircraft factories with locations, post-evacuation locations, aircraft type and number produced.
http://www.jetjournal.net/content/view/3443/88888895/
What I have been able to track down from this list seems valid but it's a lot of data to check.

I'm not really satisfied with those many dead ends in soviet aircraft, this list does suggest some possible upgrade changes.
I-15 could be upgrade to MiG-3, MiG-3 will stay a dead end as factory 1 in Moscow (later Kuybyshev (Samara))
I-16 could switch to LaGG-3 (factory 21 in Gorky)
LaGG-3 should be only produced in Gorky (1660 in 6 months of 1941 out of 2150 total in this timeframe) upgrades to La-5, La-5F, La-5FN and to La-7 although this would require a lot of factories to be (re)moved. Build limits have to be increased to cover the non-inclusion of factory 31 in Taganrog (later Tbilisi) and the removal of the wrong Saratov factory (was building Yaks)

LaGG-3 29th series and 66th series factory will be kept for historical production purposes and upgrades to Yak-3. Taganrog location is wrong as well as it was relocated to Tbilisi by January 1942 as latest, Yak-3 factory in Tbilisi would then be re-used for LaGG-3 29.
The SB-2 dead ends may get upgrades to Pe-2 equivalents.

I still have to work through the Yak hell of production/subtypes

[Flaviusx]

I'd like to see an upgrade path for the Mig 3, too. That's 40 odd regiments right there by the end of 1941 (although it takes a while to go through that inventory, the Mig 3 production is fairly high.)

Modest proposal: make airplane upgrades AP free. This is the real problem. Stop making the Soviet player waste APs on this nonsense and waiting for the fickle and unreliable upgrade routines to do the job.