Where is antitank infantry ?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: moet
But they were able to have the better over T34s. The Panzers didn't have to kiss the T34's hindquarters to destroy them!

For the 37mm and below, yes they pretty much did have to go for the flank and rear and at close range. The 50mm/L42 was a much better gun and that's also reflected in the game as far as it's performance vs. the T-34.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Raizer,

ORIGINAL: raizer
I have always thought that the 38t could never punch the front of a t34, along with the early pzIII's g-h; there were all unable to punch the 34. It wasn't until you get later into the war, with the arrival of the pzIII L,M was there a chance of doing it, and even then it wasn't that probable a kill. You talking long barreled 75mm here and those were a year off to make it to the front line units.

I think the game will signify this by you having to use firegroups, throw a card into it and maybe even spend some caps-it can be done but it'll be tough. The germans had no answers for the T34 during this time period and the game should reflect this-so make them rare or expensive.

That's exactly how it does work. You do get access to some 50mm anti-tank guns and of course the 88, but your tanks that have guns below 50mm have to work to take out a T-34. It's a tactical challenge and not something you want to fight without setting up the best possible situation first.

With the activation system and the ability to use your CAPs and cards to create good tactical situations, I feel it works out very historically.

Regards,

- Erik

[moet]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
You do get access to some 50mm anti-tank guns and of course the 88, but your tanks that have guns below 50mm have to work to take out a T-34. It's a tactical challenge and not something you want to fight without setting up the best possible situation first.
With the activation system and the ability to use your CAPs and cards to create good tactical situations, I feel it works out very historically.

Hi Erik.

First I apologize to have opened this thread instead of submitting my thoughts directly to the developers. As the game is not officially released, it is not yet the time to have an opened discussion based on my personal feelings without the contribution of the whole community of players. Now that the harm is done, I publish my last reaction :

I understand and accept that it won't be an easy job for the Germans to destroy a 19 defense value tank parked in woods (21 DV). The game reflects that historical challenge.

My concerns is "at what price for the gameplay?". True that the Germans will have to make a "dance" around those over protected T34, but I'm not sure that this dance will look like an historical one. I'm still not comfortable with this need, in the game, to get as close as 1 hex (50 m) to the rear of the target to get a small chance to destroy it. I can't imagine the German tanks running after their Russians opponents to get that close to their back.

But I suppose it is matter of taste and, as you say, there are probably more wise and elegant ways (that I will try to discover [:)]) to capture the prey.

Thank you all for your answers.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Moet,

Thanks - I think you will find that the gameplay works fine even with the high defense tanks, given the historical challenges of fighting against the Soviet heavy tanks in 1941 (when they were in repair, had ammo, gas and at least semi-competent crews). It's worth quoting from the original Conflict of Heroes board game here as well with regard to the ratings:

"Much effort went into distinguishing the units in the game by highlighting their historical strengths and weaknesses. For example, each tank defense rating takes into account relative armor thickness, armor slope deflection percentage, speed, size, targeting mechanics, and crew training. All these factors are represented in an easy to learn target number system."

Also, historically speaking the 37mm was almost completely ineffective against the T-34 from the front. It was only the flank and rear where it had any real chance to penetrate. The penetration for many of these 37mm guns was about 50-60mm at about 50-100 meters and the T-34 side armor was about equivalent to that (45mm with a slope).

Regards,

- Erik

[Lebatron]

Moet just wait until an experienced player takes out them invincible T34's sometime and you will realize that tactics do matter. You can't just look at stats and come to these unfounded conclusions. This games stats and gameplay have worked in the boardgame for years now. You're not pointing out any problem here. Not to those of us that have played these scenarios and discovered tactics that work.

[patchogue]

One of the scenarios in CM:BB had a mixed group of German tanks trying to take out a single KV1 in woods...it wasn't easy! Similarly an ASL scenario recreated an early encounter with a T-34...very hard if the tank didn't break down. And we are used to Panthers and Tigers smashing 75mm Shermans indefinitely! It sounds to me that this models a real challenge - I expect to lose for a while!

[Joram]

Having played these scenarios many times, I can assure you that you will learn to adapt and overcome. As Lebatron stated, there are many tactics to taking out those beasts from using CAPs to Group Fire to flanking and using special cards.

[moet]

I'm on the way to be convinced. I will try it by myself and see the concrete effects on the gameplay.

Indeed, I never imagined that the task was so hard for the invading Germans on the light of their enormous summer 1941 success.

[Joram]

You should find that some of the scenarios are quite challenging but none are impossible.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: moet
Indeed, I never imagined that the task was so hard for the invading Germans on the light of their enormous summer 1941 success.

When they encountered a T-34 or KV-1 that was in good repair with enough ammo and a decent crew, if they had no 50mms or 88mms nearby they certainly had trouble. There are a few horror stories about the first encounters and some Soviet armored counterattacks before the Germans learned their weaknesses and how to destroy them (but often still at a cost). They had similar experiences with some of the French and British heavy tanks in France, but those were scarce enough and again had other weaknesses in doctrine, tactics, or what have you. The Germans had many trump cards, but the stats of their tanks (at least in the early war) was not one of them.

Fortunately for the Germans, the T-34s and KV-1s were often in poor repair and poorly led and with green crews. I believe the majority of the Soviet tank losses were non-combat losses in those early days. A few stories here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_enc ... d_KV_tanks

Regards,

- Erik

[whako]

Wow great thread. Don't be sorry Moet, That was a good read.[;)]

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: moet
Indeed, I never imagined that the task was so hard for the invading Germans on the light of their enormous summer 1941 success.

When they encountered a T-34 or KV-1 that was in good repair with enough ammo and a decent crew, if they had no 50mms or 88mms nearby they certainly had trouble. There are a few horror stories about the first encounters and some Soviet armored counterattacks before the Germans learned their weaknesses and how to destroy them (but often still at a cost). They had similar experiences with some of the French and British heavy tanks in France, but those were scarce enough and again had other weaknesses in doctrine, tactics, or what have you. The Germans had many trump cards, but the stats of their tanks (at least in the early war) was not one of them.

Fortunately for the Germans, the T-34s and KV-1s were often in poor repair and poorly led and with green crews. I believe the majority of the Soviet tank losses were non-combat losses in those early days. A few stories here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_enc ... d_KV_tanks

Regards,

- Erik

There is a great narrative of how difficult just one KV 1 could be to take out in '41 in Erhard Raus Panzers on the Eastern Front. The shear effort it took and the delay is caused to take out this one tank was enlightening.

[GlobalExplorer]

I read stories that the Germans could take out many T-34s with the 20mm Vierling (flak).

The 20mm couldn't penetrate the T34's armor, but they found that the crews always abandoned the tank because the metal hull became a huge bell from the many explosive projectiles, driving the crew insane.

[Erik Rutins]

"Hits" in the game include effects such as immobilization, suppression, crew panic, etc. Your weapon of choice against T-34s and KV-1s is still definitely not going to be a Panzer II, but just about anything is possible given the right situation, modifiers and a great roll. It's also fair to assume that the crews you find in the scenarios are the ones that were good enough to get their tank to battle and are already likely the most competent of the bunch (though there are also different unit qualities in the game - green, experienced, etc.)

Regards,

- Erik

[z1812]

Interesting thread. Makes good reading along with the "beginners AAR".

[wodin]

Also I thought 88's being used as an anti tank gun was rare a the time especially the start of the Russian campaign. I know Raus had to wait a long time to get an 88 up front to deal with a tank at one point.

I believe as time went on they realised what an asset they where in an Anti tank role and started to take that into consideration. As the KV 1 and T34 where pretty invulnerable to a majority of the Germans tanks in the initial stages.

I always imagined the Germans to have had the best tanks and equipment many ayers ago until I started to read more about the Russian campaign and WW2 in general. I then realsied that a vast majority of the German tanks at the start of Barbarossa where inferior to the Russian tanks. It was all down to radio communications and superior tactics that helped the Germans match and beat the Russian tanks. Until the started to produce enough Panzer IV's anyway. I think Germany was still a good year away or more from being truly ready for the Russian campaign.