Air War in WitE

[Aurelian]

It's a good idea, but any major changes for this game are not in the cards. So we'll have to wait for WiTE 2.

IIRC, the air war for WiTW has been changed alot from this one. So has logistics.

KG's #2 is IMHO the best option.

Some people also put groups they want to train up in airbases far from the front.

Keep in mind though, Russian ground support, (I *think* that's the one), IIRC is hardwired to suck rocks in 41.

[hfarrish]

What is the purpose of the Air Commitment Level? Does that designate the number of available planes sortied per mission?

[hfarrish]

Also, as a general matter I agree the air war doesn't feel right and doesn't seem to have the appropriate level of impact...but I hope that WITW doesn't change it to require more micromanagement - the game has enough of that as it is!

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


What is the purpose of the Air Commitment Level? Does that designate the number of available planes sortied per mission?

It allows you to semi automatically transfer air units to the base. (Either the AI will do it, OR, IIRC, it will show a list of what you can pick.) Based on the level you pick and the range you choose. (Less than 20, less than 40, 41+, all ranges).

More or less, it's a way to cut down on mouse clicks.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Also, as a general matter I agree the air war doesn't feel right and doesn't seem to have the appropriate level of impact...but I hope that WITW doesn't change it to require more micromanagement - the game has enough of that as it is!

You won't be playing Bombing the Reich in WiTW But the strategic air war will be part of the game I think.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Some people also put groups they want to train up in airbases far from the front.

I haven't seen any evidence that that really works. Units gain experience through combat. It isn't like morale in ground units where if you are so far from the enemy it improves.

If you look at the 41 GC, the 27 IAD of the Transcaucus Front is locked down for at least 100+ turns and remains far from the front always. Here is my discontinued game with Pelton where the exp is:

Turn 5-

25 IAP: 51
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 49

Turn 55-

25 IAP: 52
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 51

Turn 105-

25 IAP: 52
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 51

So in 100 turns, 3 regiments netted +3 exp. You can net better results in 3 weeks on the front lines.

[Aurelian]

Yes, but how about air groups far from the front that are put there by the player? Though I don't expect them to go any higher than 50 or so. I would think they get there faster?

Wish I kept track of the ones that I have way back from the front.

[M60A3TTS]

Since you say 50, I think you're confusing morale and experience, since units more than 10 away from the front lines will get morale boosts eventualy capping at 50 until the NM level goes beyond that.  But with air units, it's the complete opposite relationship of morale vs. experience compared to ground units.  With air units, higher experienced units get more air-to-air or air-to-ground kills.  Morale only limits the experience growth to an equal value.  Then it's a trip to the national reserve to bump up the morale level, and then back to the front for more combat and exp.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Since you say 50, I think you're confusing morale and experience,

Now that you mention it, I am. I just checked a bunch of Il-2 groups, and their experience is @48. So off to the front they went.

Thanks for clearing my confusion

[HerzKaraya]

I thank you all for the game tips about improving morale and experience of my airgroups. Helpful as they are it´s not THAT point I want to address with my thread.

My airgroups all have high morale, high experience, are loaded to the max with the newest model of plane and the airbases are mostly below their max AV value. The pool also is full of spare planes.

But what is this good for if they don´t affect ground combat as they´re supposed to? If a bomb unit mission kills 3 squads and becomes a "Selbstmord" (suicide) mission for the Stukas even against no air opposition?
If attacking an airfield with a 100 fighters and a 100 bombers doesn´t even score you a couple air-to-air kills? Not to talk about aircraft killed on the ground...

THAT is the problem... in my humble opinion.

Please gives us a fix for this!

[gids]

Well the airmodel is a big mess ,hope it will be better in WitW

[AFV]

I find that the Soviets pretty much have unlimited aircraft. I can't kill enough of my own planes to ever run out (at least the ones that are being produced). Especially the biplane bomber the UV whatever. And since pilots are not tracked, who cares if you lose hundreds (hell, thousands) of good pilots? If I kill only a few Axis men/art/tanks its worth the bombing runs. Gamey but the AI does not complain...

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Still waiting for those AARS that show the Luftwaffe overwhelmed starting on T2. Or 3,4,5,6 and so on.

I know helio is incapable of doing such mundane things such as provide proof. Or do anything more than whine till he gets the money he demanded.

But he should at least try.

The Pro soviet peeps like you are alrdy giving witw a bad name.

Personal attacks just make you look childish and drive off new customers.

The air war blows, thats why 2by3 is over hauling the system completely.
Defending something that the devs themselfs are wiping clean, is like the kettle calling the frying pan black.

Their are more then a few AAR's and threads talking about how poor the air war was post 1.06 and almost every games ground rules are no spam bombing air fields and HQ's after 1.06.

Ignoring thread after thread of proof, again defending something thats being comletely over hauled and there is 10's of games with house rules limiting spam bombing and 10's of AAR's pointing out the exploit.

The exploit can still happen, the only thing stopping it is civil players. Ignoring the facts does not make them go away. 2by3 sees the fatcs and is doing something about it, you see the facts and ignore them as always.

I applaud 2by3 for admitting that the wite airwar is poor and that they ARE over hauling it. It would be nice if you did the same.

Pelton

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Still waiting for those AARS that show the Luftwaffe overwhelmed starting on T2. Or 3,4,5,6 and so on.

I know helio is incapable of doing such mundane things such as provide proof. Or do anything more than whine till he gets the money he demanded.

But he should at least try.

The Pro soviet peeps like you are alrdy giving witw a bad name.

Personal attacks just make you look childish and drive off new customers.

Your bias is showing. As one of the (Former?) pro Axis, as helio says, toddler-whiners, why do you fail to hold that one to the same standard? One must wonder how many new customers have been driven off by your own oft expressed rhetoric, to say nothing of helio's.

Do I really have to post your greatest hits?

[Aurelian]

double post

[randallw]

I also feel the air war is flawed, but the claims of the Luftwaffe being destroyed/overwhelmed in 1941 ( latest release of the game ) sound like an exaggeration.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: randallw

I also feel the air war is flawed, but the claims of the Luftwaffe being destroyed/overwhelmed in 1941 ( latest release of the game ) sound like an exaggeration.

I can only speak to 1.05. I believe my opponent Cannonfodder would confirm that in our last game, he bombed the Luftwaffe down to 200 fighters by Turn 17, at which point, in my AAR (online here, but more than 6 months old at this point), you can see the statistics (and proof). Someone reading my AAR at that point instructed me to communicate to Cannonfodder that the airfield bombing had to stop.

I can't speak to 1.06 and will not be able to in my next game, because we have a house rule of no more than 3 airfield bombings per turn.

I'm not particularly sure why that house rule would be common in the AARs that I read (for example: glvaca used this in his game with Tarhunnas, and MichaelT is using this against glvaca in their game), but it says to me that the bombing can still get out of control given the WitE model that enables mass to outperform its historical capability in the Red Air Force against Luftwaffe pilot quality and experience.

When last Cannonfodder and I spoke about it, he believed that it was a function of the week-long turns and the accumulation of fatigue per mile, which was out of scale with the week-long turn.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I can't speak to 1.06 and will not be able to in my next game, because we have a house rule of no more than 3 airfield bombings per turn.

I'm not particularly sure why that house rule would be common in the AARs that I read (for example: glvaca used this in his game with Tarhunnas, and MichaelT is using this against glvaca in their game), but it says to me that the bombing can still get out of control given the WitE model that enables mass to outperform its historical capability in the Red Air Force against Luftwaffe pilot quality and experience.

I, maybe to no ones supprise, did some tests a few beta versions ago tho not that many and only in '41. The loss rate on attacking airfields was between 80 to 100 - 1 against russian side assuming the AFs was some how protected by german/axis figthers. Yes german figthers generally did better but results was stlll up there. Achieving very few axis losses. Now I didnt make a large test base as i didnt see any point in that. As too why ppl play with that HR ill leave up too ppl them selfs to figur out.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: randallw

I also feel the air war is flawed, but the claims of the Luftwaffe being destroyed/overwhelmed in 1941 ( latest release of the game ) sound like an exaggeration.

March 44, and the LW gives better than it receives. True, I have 7 times as many a/c. But the LW is far from being overwhelmed, let alone destroyed. The loss rate is 4-1 in their favor. Even higher when I attacked airfields.

[notenome]

Any time I have ever tried to bomb the Luftwaffe I have lost at least 80 bombers