200-firing passes rule

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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
In the meantime a HR can reduce the problem to nearly non existent levels in PBEM, for those who witness the problem:
"No combat missions flown from AFs with less AV support available than # planes."

Just to insert the side effects of not modeling a suggestion and the side effects of such a home rule .. I have a level 4 base with say 100 aircraft and a BF of 100 aviation support . the enemy bombs and disbales 1 aviation support . now the entire base is shutdown? [8|] If such a direction were to be taken it would have to be graduated ...

Then extend it a bit, as you like. Its so easy I don´t really bother thinking about it. [&:]

Implement the same as the CV rule (e.g. 15% over margin). Per HR you have to limit yourself to a 100% limit, but offensive missions can be flown up to 115%.
Check "list airfields"(list bases) once per turn, the ones with AV in red are the ones you need to look at.

Solved.

The HR is an attempt to prevent 2000 plane raids from 50 AV support bases. Whether a margin is superceded by 2% for a single turn is completely
irrelevant in that context. Or am I missing something?
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treespider
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: bigred


What was the DaBabes fix for all this. I remember them doing something.


Playing DBB I always have less AV support available than aircraft.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: bigred


What was the DaBabes fix for all this. I remember them doing something.


Playing DBB I always have less AV support available than aircraft.

Tree, does that not affect the faticue level of the BFs in DBB? Just asking because IIRC one of the changes introduced in the patches was increased fatigue gain if the AV is insufficient? Or am I confusing two different things?
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Crackaces
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
In the meantime a HR can reduce the problem to nearly non existent levels in PBEM, for those who witness the problem:
"No combat missions flown from AFs with less AV support available than # planes."

Just to insert the side effects of not modeling a suggestion and the side effects of such a home rule .. I have a level 4 base with say 100 aircraft and a BF of 100 aviation support . the enemy bombs and disbales 1 aviation support . now the entire base is shutdown? [8|] If such a direction were to be taken it would have to be graduated ...

Then extend it a bit, as you like. Its so easy I don´t really bother thinking about it. [&:]

Implement the same as the CV rule (e.g. 15% over margin). Per HR you have to limit yourself to a 100% limit, but offensive missions can be flown up to 115%.
Check "list airfields"(list bases) once per turn, the ones with AV in red are the ones you need to look at.

Solved.

The HR is an attempt to prevent 2000 plane raids from 50 AV support bases. Whether a margin is superceded by 2% for a single turn is completely
irrelevant in that context. Or am I missing something?

Ok .. well I thought to address the bigger picture of big furballs around a few defended bases rather than just try and solve the problem of aviation support and numbers of aircraft flying. Then there are the consequinces when we come up with simple solutions that have not been modeled in game play. There are tons of examples that we have home rules on top of home rules to address ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

And I don´t discourage you from what you are attempting. Your proposal seems ok, FWIIW...

In the meantime I suggest how a HR could help, as this will not get fixed fast, if it gets fixed. So what is the discussion about exactly?
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Crackaces
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by Crackaces »

So what is the discussion about exactly?

The problem you describe LoBaron of excessive aircraft even 1000's of aircraft flying from a base with no air support does produce the behavior that Grey Joy has documented in his AAR as a side effect of a very gamey move [IMHO]. , A home rule as you suggest would mitgate this path to producing furballs. Now why the discussion? Because the home rule would not mitigate the situation the original poster GreyJoy encoutered. Bringing large amounts of aircraft into the battlespace and producing big furballs.

To similate this situaiton simply take Downfall using a hotseat and allow the Allies to invade Hokkaido. Make sure to use your home rule of adequate aviation support. Bingo soon you reproduce the problem. The optimum strategy of in this case is stack aircraft groups to protect critical bases. This strategy is propagated by the fact that optimum defense is to stack aircraft at the primary targets. Certainly CAP and LRCAP leaking from other bases get involved in the action, but always centered around the target -- producing big fur balls.

I am exclaming that the optimum strategy really should be multiple bases along a path to targets producing not huge furballs, but multiple encouters that the aircraft combat results engine was desgined for ...

Thus in the context of GreyJoy's situation in Hokkaido I was emphasizing that point -- because at least in my similations adequate base force support did not prevent the problem of huge furballs and leaky CAP in this situation. I did not want the developers to get an inkling that a simple home rule mitgates a design defect that "Q" can be exceeded and ruins the game. More so this behavior is encoutered only if players invest thousands of hours and a couple of years of time to discover. My hope is that by next year this time some solution has been implemented should my game get that far ..
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

This discussion is so old that I don´t even care to remember. Be sure that the devs know this too.

I am aware of all that you wrote. I just know the game and the difficulties on the game engine side, as well as on legal side, long enough, to not have any
high hopes for a perfect solution that comes even close to what you are proposing.

And I am slightly amused that a considerate player like you thinks there is a chance the same situation experienced by GJ could be experienced by you.

I am still shaking my head that GJs campaign after the initial attack on Hokkaido, and Downfall simulating the exact same situation, are viewed as something that
has any credible chance of occuring in any PBEM where two more or less equally matched opponents play. It can´t. Not if the Allied player wages war as he should.

GJ did a sensational job as a new player, but he neglected about every rule of warfare when trying to expand on his initial Hokkaido gain (which only worked with the element
of surprise on his side) at this specific time and in this specific situation. He played the worst card when thinking a Honshu invasion has any chance of success, now that rader was
prepared. Instead he should have bogged down, ran a strategic bombing campaign, and revive a couple of other frontlines. For months, maybe a year. Rader would have lost without
much effort.
Impatience was the #1 reason for those big furballs causing so much damage to GJ, and the #1 reason for his brutal naval defeats.

And I am very sure that the above will not have the slightest chance of occuring in my own PBEM, and from reading your AAR I am pretty sure it will not occur on yours. [;)]
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PaxMondo
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This discussion is so old that I don´t even care to remember. Be sure that the devs know this too.

I am aware of all that you wrote. I just know the game and the difficulties on the game engine side, as well as on legal side, long enough, to not have any
high hopes for a perfect solution that comes even close to what you are proposing.

And I am slightly amused that a considerate player like you thinks there is a chance the same situation experienced by GJ could be experienced by you.

I am still shaking my head that GJs campaign after the initial attack on Hokkaido, and Downfall simulating the exact same situation, are viewed as something that
has any credible chance of occuring in any PBEM where two more or less equally matched opponents play. It can´t. Not if the Allied player wages war as he should.

GJ did a sensational job as a new player, but he neglected about every rule of warfare when trying to expand on his initial Hokkaido gain (which only worked with the element
of surprise on his side) at this specific time and in this specific situation. He played the worst card when thinking a Honshu invasion has any chance of success, now that rader was
prepared. Instead he should have bogged down, ran a strategic bombing campaign, and revive a couple of other frontlines. For months, maybe a year. Rader would have lost without
much effort.
Impatience was the #1 reason for those big furballs causing so much damage to GJ, and the #1 reason for his brutal naval defeats.

And I am very sure that the above will not have the slightest chance of occuring in my own PBEM, and from reading your AAR I am pretty sure it will not occur on yours. [;)]
+1

This is why, I beleive, it is difficult for the dev's to consider investing much effort on this. Just my opinion, and we'll have to wait and see what is in the next patch.
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GreyJoy
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This discussion is so old that I don´t even care to remember. Be sure that the devs know this too.

I am aware of all that you wrote. I just know the game and the difficulties on the game engine side, as well as on legal side, long enough, to not have any
high hopes for a perfect solution that comes even close to what you are proposing.

And I am slightly amused that a considerate player like you thinks there is a chance the same situation experienced by GJ could be experienced by you.

I am still shaking my head that GJs campaign after the initial attack on Hokkaido, and Downfall simulating the exact same situation, are viewed as something that
has any credible chance of occuring in any PBEM where two more or less equally matched opponents play. It can´t. Not if the Allied player wages war as he should.

GJ did a sensational job as a new player, but he neglected about every rule of warfare when trying to expand on his initial Hokkaido gain (which only worked with the element
of surprise on his side) at this specific time and in this specific situation. He played the worst card when thinking a Honshu invasion has any chance of success, now that rader was
prepared. Instead he should have bogged down, ran a strategic bombing campaign, and revive a couple of other frontlines. For months, maybe a year. Rader would have lost without
much effort.
Impatience was the #1 reason for those big furballs causing so much damage to GJ, and the #1 reason for his brutal naval defeats.

And I am very sure that the above will not have the slightest chance of occuring in my own PBEM, and from reading your AAR I am pretty sure it will not occur on yours. [;)]

Well, altough i understand your point of view, i don't think that's exactly what happened.
Rader experienced the same thing and complained just like me.
I chose to land at Honshu not because i was impatient. I knew that operation had 0,5% of chance of success, but i thought one year of strat bombing campaign wasn't good for my audience [:D]
But that's not the point. The only real point is that the 200 firing passage rule unbalances the game in favour of the attacker when certain numbers are reached.
Rader experienced the same. He managed to put something like 2500 TOP fighters around Tokyo (and when i say TOP, i mean KI.201, KI-83, KI-94, Shidens and waves and waves of Franks) but, no matter what he did, if i sent in 200 escorts along with 400 4Es, the escorts were mauled, while not a single fighter was able to intercept the bombers....so his industries couldn't be defended.... and don't say that the allies should always be able to bomb Japan to dust no matter what cause in our particular match Rader's aircraft industry was so advanced that if it wasn't for that rule the allies would have never achieved any kind of aerial superiority.

The same, obviously, happened to me. I remember for example at Hakkodate. I had placed something like 1200 TOP fighters on CAP (those of you who followed the game know the quality of my air force)...he simply had to send in a wave of 300 dead-meat Oscars escorting 500 Helens...and voilà: 300 oscars downed (remember we had the 300 firing passing patch) and not a single shot to the enemy bombers.... results? Bases were undefendable.

Not to talk about my CVs... they were well organized, divided in TFs following the best pratice....CAP was HUGE ....and the results always the same: 300 escorts downed and not a single scrap to the attacking torpedo bombers....

I think you just need to make some tests in a sandbox scenario to see that this rule advantages too much the attacker.

This is not a rant clearly. I love this game and i have loved that match. But i think that the "problem" wasn't created by my inexperience or by our particular game. The problem has always been there, in the code.
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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

The reason for the issue to surface in your game was the extreme force concentration on a small part of the map while both sides were still able to sustain and replace massive losses, and a Japan that at the same time defended their home turf while feeding on the industry of half the globe, independent on the root cause for this situation.

When I will be as close to Japan as you were on Hokkaido, this will not be the case.

The average endgame has the action spread over too many frontlines to make this kind of force concentration a useful strategy, usually has a much worse ressource situation for Japan, and a much longer attritional history of the Japanese forces. Combined with the suggested HR, which additionally works against that kind of force concentration, as massing such numbers of aviation support on a single point would be plain dumb, the issue you witnessed is reduced to a minimum.

I don't need a Sandbox test to understand that a solution would be helpful to cover the extreme ends of the game, but these extremes are no threat to the average endgame, or if you prefer, at least not to anybody's endgame favoring a balanced advance on Japan from several directions that require a spread out defense.

Also, as you will very soon discover, DBB has enough barriers alone to make even purposefully crated furballs of the size you experienced next to impossible. [;)]
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by n01487477 »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I don't need a Sandbox test to understand that a solution would be helpful to cover the extreme ends of the game, but these extremes are no threat to the average endgame, or if you prefer, at least not to anybody's endgame favoring a balanced advance on Japan from several directions that require a spread out defense.

The problem is I love playing guys like Nemo, where force concentration is his M.O. I'll not argue with you, cause it is a lost cause, but there is a problem in the code... and nobody is going to talk me around and while Babes is good, it won't change the ingenuity and sneakiness of a human player.
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LoBaron
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by LoBaron »

Point taken. Nemos scenarios are tough on the game.

But what the hell makes you think that I do not see a code issue?
I confirmed that several times in this thread alone.

Those who are able to make changes required are in the know for ages, and whether they find a way to adress the problem or not is not clear. The lost cause is not me but the old game engine, a non existent - or 1 person - dev team, and the long known legal issues concerning the code.

This makes a solution unlikely to happen, unlikely to happen fast, and unlikely to be immune to the "ingenuity and sneakiness of a human player" as you call it. Though, if anybody comes up with a way to solve the problem within the limitations the devs' abilities I'd be surprized but delighted.

Any ideas? Hum?
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I don't need a Sandbox test to understand that a solution would be helpful to cover the extreme ends of the game, but these extremes are no threat to the average endgame, or if you prefer, at least not to anybody's endgame favoring a balanced advance on Japan from several directions that require a spread out defense.

The problem is I love playing guys like Nemo, where force concentration is his M.O. I'll not argue with you, cause it is a lost cause, but there is a problem in the code... and nobody is going to talk me around and while Babes is good, it won't change the ingenuity and sneakiness of a human player.


I agree here. And it's not just Nemo, every halve skilled IJ player should be able to mass aircraft late war, no matter what the Allied player is doing. The IJ player is still able to produce masses of aircraft without having a single ton of fuel out of the SRA as long as he isn't building ships and why should he need new ships at that stage. He probably swims in ground units so why should he need armament or vehicle points, if he hasn't got ample in the pool anyway.

The code is flawed in that respect as it just can't handle those huge masses of aircraft. Nothing but a code change is going to change this issue and if an Allied player isn't experiencing a problem with this in late 44 early 45 then just because the IJ player hasn't figured it out how to use it to max effect. Of course if the IJ player thinks it would be better to only have 200 aircraft at each base because it feels better then there will of course not be that issue with massed aircraft but those "small" strikes will then just be eaten up by Allied death stars so I wonder how long the IJ player will just sit and watch.
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I don't need a Sandbox test to understand that a solution would be helpful to cover the extreme ends of the game, but these extremes are no threat to the average endgame, or if you prefer, at least not to anybody's endgame favoring a balanced advance on Japan from several directions that require a spread out defense.

The problem is I love playing guys like Nemo, where force concentration is his M.O. I'll not argue with you, cause it is a lost cause, but there is a problem in the code... and nobody is going to talk me around and while Babes is good, it won't change the ingenuity and sneakiness of a human player.

I know it won't happen, but a great code change would be to simply prevent petroleum products from moving on land unless there is an open rail connection. This would prevent the Singers-to-Korea auto-movement of Palembang/Medan oil and fuel, force it onto the water where it was historically attacked by Allied subs, and significantly change Chinese defense and maneuver strategies. It would force the Japanese player to continue to make merchant hulls as long as possible, and reduce the availability of excess lift capacity for forays into Oz or India. And HI in the late war would become precious, which it should be, and not part of a 3-4 million-point bank which allows the Biggest Air Force in the World to fly over the HI in 1945.

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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I don't need a Sandbox test to understand that a solution would be helpful to cover the extreme ends of the game, but these extremes are no threat to the average endgame, or if you prefer, at least not to anybody's endgame favoring a balanced advance on Japan from several directions that require a spread out defense.

The problem is I love playing guys like Nemo, where force concentration is his M.O. I'll not argue with you, cause it is a lost cause, but there is a problem in the code... and nobody is going to talk me around and while Babes is good, it won't change the ingenuity and sneakiness of a human player.

I know it won't happen, but a great code change would be to simply prevent petroleum products from moving on land unless there is an open rail connection. This would prevent the Singers-to-Korea auto-movement of Palembang/Medan oil and fuel, force it onto the water where it was historically attacked by Allied subs, and significantly change Chinese defense and maneuver strategies. It would force the Japanese player to continue to make merchant hulls as long as possible, and reduce the availability of excess lift capacity for forays into Oz or India. And HI in the late war would become precious, which it should be, and not part of a 3-4 million-point bank which allows the Biggest Air Force in the World to fly over the HI in 1945.


Or find yourself a player who doesn't try to take advantage of that unrealistic movement. I go ahead and move mine by sea, like what really happened. Even though I could easily secure a line from Singapore to Port Arthur. I also don't turn off my merchant shipyards either.

It would be easy to utilize that weakness in the code...but it also makes the game far less challenging.
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BigDuke66
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RE: 200-firing passes rule

Post by BigDuke66 »

Couldn't this limit be finally raised, at least in an extra EXE?
I know we once had a patch version with an extra EXE with more passes that seemed to produce good results, didn't anything follow in these footsteps?
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