Allied CVs, early war

[RogerJNeilson]

The first rule of the Allies in WITP is 'Don't lose your carriers'

The second rule of the Allies in WITP is the first rule.......

Ad infinitum.

Roger

[The Gnome]

My carriers get used to cover my supply chains, but well out of betty range. I can usually punish any attempted raids by cvl's or surface groups. I can also discourage any overly aggressive invasion attempts that wander out beyond LBA support and are foolish enough not to bring along KB.

More or less I keep them out of port and doing something useful, but definitely out of harm's way.

[JocMeister]

Hmm, Just coming out of my second cv battle I have some recent experience with this. But beware of the 7 hex strike...not much fun! [:D]

I´m convinced that the KB is far, far from invincible. Given the right circumstances the KB can be punished. Hiding your CVs on the WC until you have complete carrier supremacy won´t gain you anything. Use your carriers to check the KB or raid. Keep all six CVs togheter. Makes sure all pilots are fully trained and you have the best leaders assigned. If you go up against the KB make sure its on your terms!

[Sardaukar]

KB is very dangerous, but can be brittle, just as in Midway. If you get lucky, you can punish IJN severely. As Allies, you can always come back with Essex-class CVs, IJN cannot.

But I rarely risk my CVs, unless repulsing invasion and being totally sure KB is not around.

[Canoerebel]

I'm pretty sure I set the record for wackiest (worst?) use of Allied carriers in my game vs. Q-Ball a few years back.  He invaded India in March 1942 with the full KB present.  I kept the Allied carriers in Capetown for use only in the event I had to force convoys into Karachi.  It got very, very bad for awhile, and I came very, very close to committing the carriers...but I never did.  They sat in Capetown or Mombassa for about seven or eight months.  The upside was that none of them got sunk.

[pharmy]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

ORIGINAL: icepharmy

Betty's and Nell's lose their edge once you have better CAPs and after a couple of fighter traps, he will have lost his best pilots. Takes a long time to train a new and proper LBA - Navt/NavB/LowN along with search and ASW skills (the last two are essential for when your subs get better and you want to augment your recon).

Why on earth would you want to train Betty pilots in nav bombing, ASW and LowN skills? Get them up to 70 Torpedo skill with about 55/60 search and they are done! Combine with 50 xp, 70 airskill A6M3a pilots and you have a strike force of 90 planes ready to do damage 15 hexes out well into 1944!

ever since single Engine IJAAF units cost 200pps to upgrade to use a ASW assets But seriously the nav bombing and LowN -mainly I play RA - and supply is a very crucial issue, you won't always have torpedoes ready at the minimum of 7 or 8 HQs (the economy in stock or DBB lite is so easy compared to RA), also you can do extended range attacks with bombs if you take a chance. Japanese Navs is also terrible in detecting what units you are facing - a 50 navs skill US pilot will sometimes confuse a CV and CVL or CS - but with the IJN I am blind until skills go over 70. Using the Nells/Bettys as patrol aircraft is almost a must if you want to avoid blindspots, too few PT units availabble. ASW isnt that important, IJAAF land bombers have OK range for that. Thats why I put Navb/LowN in the same category as NavT (low Nav I'm not so sure is needed for either), ASW and Search is optional but its the best thing to supplement your meager Patrol assets

[The Gnome]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

KB is very dangerous, but can be brittle, just as in Midway. If you get lucky, you can punish IJN severely. As Allies, you can always come back with Essex-class CVs, IJN cannot.

But I rarely risk my CVs, unless repulsing invasion and being totally sure KB is not around.

I agree with that, especially if you can engage them in range of your own LBA and once your Devastators have been upgraded to Avengers. I once jumped KB landing at the base north of Noumea and manage to get two sunk CV's at the cost of a badly damaged Lexington and Yorktown. It probably would have turned out a lot worse, but I had a bunch of LBA squadrons massed up at Noumea for support.

My carriers were there escorting a massive convoy to Brisbane out of nothing more than dumb luck. I probably would have lost the island without my CV's being in the area.

As with you though, it's a calculated risk, and one I don't take unless it's an extreme opportunity.

[pharmy]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


Lexington's raid on Rabaul was greeted by a handful of unescorted betties

someone remind me if they were carrying torpedoes or 250kg

I just reread Bruce Gambles Fortress Rabaul - the torpedoes did not arrive in Rabaul so they took 2x250kg bombs - drop tanks for the Zeroes also did not arrive yet, hence why no escort - the 4th Air Group also only had 2 chutais of 18 Betties as about 9-10 a/c that were to form the 3rd chutai were still inbound from the Chitose Airgroup in the Marianas (where they just re-transitioned from Nells)

[Nikademus]

Due to weather and such, they also attacked seperately compounding the lack of escort. Still.....there was a near miss. Ultimately not worth the losses of course but it highlights the 'risk' of war. Had Lex been hit and badly damaged or sunk, it would have made the losses worthwhile.

In the game I'm very wary about attacking a base with proper air defenses. I'll still do it though.....because Boys just wanna have fun. I'd say i've been luckier than unlucky. But on several occasions i've suffered torpedo hits in retaliation for my "raid"

Like the real event......its pinpricking and not really worth the material risk but it does my morale good when i pull it off. [:D]

[pharmy]

Actually the two Mavis' who spotted Lex were shot down before they could repeat the position, and the two chutais devised a convergent attack, unfortunately for them, not arriving at the same time due to lack of accurate up to date info- the IJN expected Lex to be retiring, instead it was advancing to Rabaul until nightfall, so the advance/vanguard chutai had to backtrack. Still if not for a LT O'Hare (the guy after whom Chicago O'Hare airport is named after) there was still every chance of success as almost all of the CAP except the frustrated O'Hare and his gunned-jammed wing-man (he did not know this at the time) were held back over the carrier by the fighter director while Thach and his buddy's went hunting for glory. He didn't actually shoot down 5 bombers in a row, but the effect was the same, only one straggled onward to try to bodycrash Lexington.

Now if at Midway part of the IJN CAP was kept or sent back up after the TBs attacked, again we might have had an alternate ending.

But I give less money on chance as I think this does demonstrate that radar technology and having a level headed fighter director on the ship is worth far more then the Mark one eyeball.The Japanese system of air-coordination by one of the pilots/observers (offensively, defensively I have no idea how Japanese CAP worked)could have and would have worked if both groups arrived in time or together. If they actually would have a radar equipped Mavis, they could have started their CAP splitting all sides of the compass over visual range.

Played a lot of Harpoon previously and nothing could overcome a USCVN group better then then shadowing Bear recons just out of Phoenix missile range guiding and Bear bombers and Blindfires converging from all points of the compass.

[FatR]

I think that Allied carriers should be used actively very early in the game, when Japanese long-range torpedo bomber and search forces are relatively numerically weak and probably concentrated in DEI. One certainly should not risk a carrier battle at this stage, but if you know for sure where KB is, that is a good opportunity to raid where it isn't. (Aleutians usually is a weak spot early on.) Even if material effects of carrier raids are small, they might distract the Japanese forces from the key theatres and make your opponent more cautious.

From about May of 1942 (after 4/42) upgrades Allied carrier forces can fight KB with confidence, assuming a battle on Allies' turf and no major losses previously. I think that from that point they are best used as a deterrent against further Japanese expansion and preferably hidden from view.


As about Netties - it should be remembered that they can be sent to attack at 1k, greatly reducing detection range. In my experience low-altitude raids very often get through even fairly large CAPs, by sacrificing their escorts. Keeping some fighter groups low is highly recommended for the Allies, when going against LBA (same goes for the Japanese and Allied skipbombers), but in a carrier battle such CAP configuration might be counterproductive.

[Titanwarrior89]

Remember, its not a historical game...its ahistorical so with the Jap player keeping his carriers together in a KB mass, the odds of a midway, coral sea or a santa cruz islands battle happening is low(in the early years 42, 43).  If the allied player does go head to head against KB, the odds are your going to get the worst of it.  So as mention above keep your carriers away from KB.  You'll find that that coming up thru the slot(the canal) as was done historically will be very hard in this game against a seasoned player....due the KB and betties.

I know it makes for a long boring game in the early years but thats how it is.......But myself normally can't go that long, so I end up losing my CV's or half my naval force.  So i usually call it sometime in 43.  So hang in there, remember in the game its not who won or lost but ride to get there. [;)]

[cantona2]

Concentrate and hide. Once you pin point where the KB is raid some bases to raise XP then use them to support your first moves in SOPAC

[Nikademus]

same goes for the Japan player too. Allied players tend to concentrate as well even though back in the day the US was willing to send less than the fully Monty. However, this being said [again] I have fought against some crafty opponents on both sides of the fence who carefully split their assets in places in order to acomplish multiple goals simotaniously.

All moves entail risk. The con of Concentration is that you can only cover one angle at a time and the map is huge. Certainly for big efforts, max concentration is the rule. I did split my KB once into two 3 CV parts That caused some angst when i caught some juicy targets

[treespider]

You think Allied CV's early war are weak...bite me! I knew exactly where they were...one of my subs even had the temerity to scratch Yorktown's paint with a torpedo the day before the big exchange on the 15th.

[spence]

Now if at Midway part of the IJN CAP was kept or sent back up after the TBs attacked, again we might have had an alternate ending.

Read "Shattered Sword". You will find that no ONE controlled the IJN CAP. The re-cycling of the CAP at the whim of the CAP pilots on individual ships is what kept the IJN flight decks busy throughout all the Midway and VT squadron attacks and is also EXACTLY WHAT KEPT THE IJN ATTACK PLANES IN THE HANGARS until the SBDs and the 1000 lb bombs arrived. The IJN was studying the feasibility of a Fighter Direction Center BY THE END OF THE WAR but had never implemented such a thing.

But I digress.

Actually what I felt needed to be said is that before any unit of the IJNAF had ever had scored one single "live shot" against a real target, the Fleet Air Arm of the RN had crippled 3 battleships in harbor at Taranto, hit the BB Vittorio Veneto and CA Pola with torpedoes while underway (stopping the Pola DIW), and scored 3 torpedo hits on the Bismarck (just listing the most notable of attacks by FAA units). Not withstanding their utterly obsolete attack aircraft and small air groups they had been operating under the wings of the Italian and German Air Forces in the Mediterranean (admittedly somewhat reluctantly but also effectively) for over a year by the time that Pearl Harbor happened. I suppose if there had been a wholesale change in FAA aircrew in late 1941 there might be some justification for the pretty awful ratings that the Brit carrier air groups possess compared to the IJN but I've never found any evidence that such a thing occurred.

Although we'll never really know what might have happened the RN FAA had aircraft that possessed radar and could have fought the IJN carriers at night while all the KB Aces were asleep in their beds (or at least mostly blind).

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: treespider

You think Allied CV's early war are weak...bite me! I knew exactly where they were...one of my subs even had the temerity to scratch Yorktown's paint with a torpedo the day before the big exchange on the 15th.

Nein....I think YOU are weak. I will root out those weak branches you call muscles.......

[:'(]

[Commander Stormwolf]

need to have the 4 x Kongo BB with your carriers
to distract some of the dauntlesses

also helps to fight outside of TBD range, and sometimes, out of F4F range as well.. but that is more of a roll of the dice [:)]

actually the most disconcerting thing would be an allied player who strips his carriers of fighters, and packs them full of SBD and TBF, sets no CAP (you can's stop a zero + kate strike anyway) and rocks you with a full wildcat + dauntless + avenger strike, and there is no way the KB fighters will stop that

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: treespider

You think Allied CV's early war are weak...bite me! I knew exactly where they were...one of my subs even had the temerity to scratch Yorktown's paint with a torpedo the day before the big exchange on the 15th.

I think the general consensus has always been. Never take on KB-"unless" Treespider is your opponent. Then you can safely figure that you have about a 80% chance of sinking at least six of his carriers.

We call it Treespider's Law. [:D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

i do agree that a better design than the betty was needed, something fast and heavily armed+armored

Ju-88? [:D]