Speedy vs Mogmark (no Mogmark)

[Speedysteve]

South:

Lvov pocket is totally sealed this time. Rovno is stormed and a further Tk and Mtr Division are cut off south of Rovno.

[HITMAN202]

Mud in July ??? Forget historicity, this is pure fantasy. And besides, a heavy week of ran is not a Rasputitsa. Its a whole month of rain that produces the literal supply/movement quagmire. Not a mire week. But in July ?? If I seem a bit sensitive (we all can wear our feelings on our sleeves) I resigned a server game (I did lose some respect for myself) with Bomazz after the following...

Like Mogmark I got rain on turn three in the AGS sector, but the real hurt was that I transferred 3 Pz div to Rumania on turn 2 and not able to execute what can be a huge AGS strategy. No big deal, that's part of the game with non-Random weather,

but, shiver-me-timbers I also got turn 3 rain all south of the Dugava. Holy Crap !!!! But again that's the role of the die (and it is just a game.) Now Bomazz conducted a forward Pskov defense (I can imagine Flavius licking his lips knowing he has an additional turn to establish what can be a formidable defense) .

I fortunately had sent 9 Pz units north, was able to breech the river line south of Pskov, but got my Pz a little abused with no infantry support. A turn behind because of the rain, I hit Pskov's extensive defense network (25-30 units ??) with the infantry on turn 5, hard on turn 6 with a Pz buildup and isolated Pskoz and a bunch on units on turn 7.

As is often the case after the penetration of a major defense line, I was going to clean up shop (and started a build up chain), but, Holy Cow of Italy, got mud on turn 8 !!! No lie !!! But that's just the beginning !!!

With all the power at Pskov, I couldn't fully clean up the pocket at Pskov, had a worthless BUP, had the other Pz Corp planned for BUP out of supply and was unable to close a pocket of 10 or so units in between AGN and AGC . Also mud in AGC the same turn!!!

I had a nice pocket in AGC I couldn't reduce, one Pz Corp out of supply and another I couldn't build up. Could it get worse. Yep !!

Mud in the AGS to boot. I had breached a well defended Dnper on turn 7 had a chain ready and ... I won't continue to voice my pain. Now Bomazz is a good player and I wasn't playing the game just to win, but putting two hours a move into a game should elicit some pleasure. I was in pain. Seriously, weather die rolls shouldn't have such an impact.

You may say I was just unlucky. Duhhh... But wasn't wanting to feel like I had lost all at Las Vegas !!!

[Seminole]

I was in pain. Seriously, weather die rolls shouldn't have such an impact.

That's funny, Eisenhower was thinking the same thing in May of '44...

The point of random weather isn't to have the same weather as historical, it is to increase variety and reduce 'cookie cutter' or 'clockwork' campaigns to increase replay enjoyability.

In my current game as the Soviets I was stuck with a clear turn 18 in the South, which allowed the Germans to bag some extra divisions (including cavalry and mtn!), so it definitely can cut both ways.

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.

[Flaviusx]

I'm doubting that Speedy is very happy he got mud in South Soviet on turn 3. Bad timing.

Conversely, the Axis player can now advance in that zone without any fears of mud until turn 18. That means clear sailing to Rostov.

Early mud in North Soviet is even worse from the Soviet standpoint. The ideal time for that to hit is around turns 12-14...just in time to stall the big push to Moscow.

The best time for mud to hit in South and Central Soviet is between turns 5-7, imo. This buys you time along the Dnepr and delays the crossing.

In short...there's mud and there's mud, and not all mud turns are equally effective or damaging, depending on your perspective.

[HITMAN202]

Your're probably a better soldier than I. But having a few more divisions isolated on turn 18 near Moscow is not similar to mud on turn 3 (even AGC was hurt some),"and" a catastropic turn 8 where pockets are not reduced, pockets not closed, PzBUP's that are wasted and other Pz out of supply that can't be BUP, "and" other possible weather disasters. There has not been mud at Leningrad, the Donbass, and , oh I forgot, at Moscow. Yet.

I am having more pleasure than pain relating all this (I'm hoping the big guns ..Pelton,Flavius et al..chime in..Flavius is such a huge asset to this board.. I'm being serious, for once) but I will not play Random Weather again. I think Flavius will agree that the impact of random weather is way too great.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202
Seriously, weather die rolls shouldn't have such an impact.

You'll be thinking twice about this as Axis when you get random snow turns in Dec 41/Jan 42...

[hfarrish]

Even though I'm a supporter of random weather, the rules don't currently allow for snow or mud during 12/41 and 1/42 - only blizzard.

[Flaviusx]

In a vacuum, yes, the impact of weather is too great. But logistics in this game are ridiculous and op tempo is much too fast.

So it's one absurdity balancing another. Until logistics get a do over, this is the best we can do. I will not play an expert Axis player without the random weather now because they know how to make the logistics system do whatever they want it to do and achieve advances at miraculous rates. We will leave aside the further absurdity of the Lvov opener.

[HITMAN202]

Flavius. Clear sailing after turn three ??? Not in my game. Mud east of Rumania, turn 3, mud east of the Dnper, turn 8. Yea, there was good weather near D and Z town, but that's not where the fight was at. Both AGN and AGS had two weather turns (3 and 8) that also directly affected BUP's for the next (9th) turn. AGC was hurt on turn 8, and possibly later near Moscow.

How good would your advance Pskov defense be with an additional turn of preparation ???? Against Bomazz after turn 8, isolated Pskov was not reduced, 5 Pz divisions were out of supply and 4 Pz built-up with no where to go, there was a strong Soviet line just north of Pskov and no converted hexes north of it. Maybe Leningrad would hold.

[Flaviusx]

Each individual zone can only get one turn of mud during summer. If you're seeing the same zone get hit more than once in this time period, then that's a bug.

There are 3 main weather zones in play here, North, Central, and South Soviet (there are others, but mostly they don't figure into 1941) and therefore 3 discrete mud events to watch out for. It is possible for more than one zone to get hit in a given turn. But once any of these zones have taken a bite out of the apple, they are done until turn 18. It is also possible for these zones never to experience mud at all.

[hfarrish]

I don't think it's quite so easy for a Soviet player to really take advantage of the random weather - it slows down the German advance, to be sure, but in order to do anything more than that, the Soviet has to use a more forward defense...and that is a huge risk given that you may not get mud when you need it and then just end up being pocket bait. I certainly don't change my strategy on the hope that I might get mud.

To Flavius's point, it's an imperfect mechanism of getting the game to a good point but hopefully everyone would agree that the non-random expert games we are seeing are borderline comical in terms of where the German army is in August / September. No easy answers but its the one we have.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Even though I'm a supporter of random weather, the rules don't currently allow for snow or mud during 12/41 and 1/42 - only blizzard.

Every random weather game I've played has had at least one snow turn in Dec 41/Jan 42. It's in the rule book also, in the weather section.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
In a vacuum, yes, the impact of weather is too great. But logistics in this game are ridiculous and op tempo is much too fast.

So it's one absurdity balancing another. Until logistics get a do over, this is the best we can do. I will not play an expert Axis player without the random weather now because they know how to make the logistics system do whatever they want it to do and achieve advances at miraculous rates. We will leave aside the further absurdity of the Lvov opener.

Flavius is harsh at times, but more often than not he sums it up in his way. More flavors of "mud" and "rain" or "snow" would be nice. It would match the problems the Germans faced in all three sectors in summer/autumn 41 to have a few weeks of reduced supply or movement rates, and it would bring down the op-tempo much as the logistic issue would play into it.

Ultimately I like random weather even despite that much more. Despite the impact you can see how lucky the Germans were with the summer, and how unlucky with the winter. C'est la vie. Random requires both players to be much more careful, and behave much more realistically if not to accept risks that would have them cost their heads. No clockwork campaigns perfectly optimized using hindsight and weather schedule, but caution, reserves, and in doubt slower rather than cut off in mud... overall it has a much better feel to it.

PS. Good luck speedy!

[HITMAN202]

I think you might be wrong about the possible frequency of mud. My game with Bomazz was on the server, so I don't know if it can't be reviewed. In AGN there was mud south of the Dugava on turn 3 (it was sickening to see almost all of my infantry still south of the Dugava on turn 3) and at Pskov turn 8, and I think it extended all the way to Leningrad. I think on turn 3 it was clear north of the Dugava, as I took a hex across the river line south of Pskov (and got hurt doing it.) and on turn 8 clear south of the Dugava.

Similarly on turn 3 there was mud east of Rumania and all of the Luga pocket, but I think north of Taranpol(sp??) it was clear. Turn 8 had mud east of the Dnper and west, but I don't know if it was all the way to the Rumanian border.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Schmart


Every random weather game I've played has had at least one snow turn in Dec 41/Jan 42. It's in the rule book also, in the weather section.

Just trying to resolve this once and for all - I'm looking at p.215 of the manual where it states the following:

v1.03 Beta 2 - January 21, 2011
There will be no snow or mud during December 1941 and January 1942 (only Blizzard).

Has this been subsequently overriden? Not wanting to have it both ways as the Red I have no issue if it has been...

[Speedysteve]

My take on Random Weather is that it purely spices things up. Over the course of the war it can often be a leveller. It can be detrimental to the Axis in 41 with Rain but then can give a snow turn breather in 41 Blizzard. In 42 it's possible to have a load of clear rather than Mud turns in late spring (= good for Axis) and then from 42 onwards the random Mud turn can be a blessing for the Axis. I feel people focus on 41 too much which is probably because it'ss the most frequently seen and played time in the game.

Hitman - don't forget the various Weather Zones. It means you will get Mud in different areas that can appear near to each other but could be weeks apart.

[Speedysteve]

North:

Due to little Axis movements my positions remained stable up here except with the completion of the Luga Line by 3 x Div's and by some new Cadres forming all around LG.

[Speedysteve]

Center:

No attacks by me but I did isolate 3rd PzD, 10th MtD and 1 other units west of Mogilev.

My Dnepr line won't hold (defence values are between 2 and 7 per unit) but they will delay for a turn or so.

[Speedysteve]

South:

Just a bit of re-org with the SW Front CheckerBoard. If Mogmark ensnares more of SW Front next Turn I'll probably leave a few skirmishes and retire to the Dnepr line.

No movement with Southern Front due to Mud.

[Speedysteve]

Losses: