A new ACW..

[Jamm]

Stop poking the bears,...

[Wolfe1759]

The 2nd Amendment may have been a good idea when it was written.

Times change.

[rhondabrwn]

If the founding father's quoted previously in this thread were brought forward in time to see the carnage of the breakup of Yugoslavia, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, the slaughter in Sarajevo etc

They would go back and delete the 2nd amendment. They could not comprehend the atrocity of a population with 300 million modern firearms turning them against each other.

I would ask just how you think your weapons would be used in this new "civil war"? I do this with the locals to get them thinking.

Get your buddies and go downtown and attack the police station? Blow up city hall? Burn the Social Security Office? March on Washington and try to kill Congress and the President? Form a mob and just go around killing everyone you see who doesn't look like you?

And then when you have no police to protect you from criminals, you form vigilante squads to patrol and protect your homes from... criminals and... whatever...

And how do you feed yourself with the economy shut down, trucks not moving, government disrupted, banks closed... public utilities shut down... so no electricity... no garbage pickup...

It's one thing to threaten "2nd Amendment Remedies" and fantasize a civil war, but I don't think anyone has really considered what it would be like... and what the chances are for them and their families to end up dead.

The way to preserve our nation is through the ballot box and informed voting, not by grabbing guns to "get your way". Once you realize how things would play out, the idea that you need assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition becomes rather silly and useless. Is it that disturbing to consider putting the same kind of licensing and title registration systems we use for automobiles in place for firearms?

[heyhellowhatsnew]

ORIGINAL: parusski

There is no war but class war, my friends. And if you think that making the rich pay a bit more in taxes (the deal ended up being only the top %.02 (those making more than 400k instead of 200k) Americans instead of 2%, because Obama is a conservative himself, and not the marxist socialist people like to believe, he is still bound by the powers of those who have WEALTH) will ruin the country, then I really think you should re-evaluate how our government works, which is this: The wealthy have more say than average folks like you or I.

Oh dear Lord. I just fell outta my chair. I just never realized Obama was such a conservative. WOW.

He is certainly no liberal, socialist, or communist. He's Center-Right just like the rest of the two party system folks are who run for President.

Don't believe the Fox news hype.

Trust me, I WISH Obama was the socialist Fox News makes him out to be, but he is seriously like the rest of the center-right politicians in our nation masquerading for one side to get elected into power. See the example I gave in the post you quoted before.

Obama isn't going to take away your guns. Please don't worry about that. This is just propaganda to keep you scared so that people continue to profit and manipulate off of whatever side you're on.


This two party system is destroying our nation and pitting us together while the rich get richer. We shouldn't be enemies but allies.

[heyhellowhatsnew]

ORIGINAL: parusski

I really can't stand gun control arguments. The founders clearly spelled out why they included a right to bear arms, read what some of the founders wrote:

George Mason, author of the Virginia Bill of Rights, which inspired our Constitution's Bill of Rights, said, "To disarm the people -- that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed," adding later, "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government."

I never got the deification or fetishizing of our "founding fathers". They were old slave owners who believed in things like the best way to solve a dispute was the duel with handguns and other outdated nonsensical beliefs and genociding Native Americans

They were just humans that lived centuries ago. Not Gods. Not prophets.

At least they had the common sense to know that our constitution is something meant to be evolved, because they had to foresight to know that human thought evolved and things change. Or poor whites, women and people like me would never be able to vote. That kinda thing.

As I said, i'm very very very socialist and I don't think that the second amendment should be repealed. And it won't. There is no gestapo that will take your gun away. I promise you this. This is never going to happen. No one will come and take anyone's gun away ever.

After all, the NRA and other lobbyists have bought our representatives pretty well so that any idea of a true gun control solution that will help lessen the deaths of our children and teens will never happen.

Welcome to the government. Highest bidder gets what they want. More of a reason for ALL of us to band together against the wealthy elite.

[heyhellowhatsnew]

ORIGINAL: rosseau

It's a lot scarier than gun control. Consumer confidence is down dramatically. Speaking economically, the debt is like a pyramid scheme that may soon collapse.

Worldwide, food, water and energy all have similar demand curves - straight up. In the 1950s, it took one barrel of oil to get 15 out of the ground. Now we only get 3 barrels out of it. The "easy" oil is harder to get. Takes more oil (energy) to grow food, etc. Population grows exponentially. Just an example that unrestricted worldwide economic growth may be impossible to sustain. At 56, I am not concerned for myself. But I am extremely concerned about the younger generation - "kids" under 20. And yes, I am praying.

Consumer confidence was going up until the media (owned by the few wealthy elite) hyped up this fiscal cliff nonsense, unemployment is going down or improving http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 1193.story (people seem to not understand the damage Bush did).

Folks, this fiscal cliff thing was all a charade, and if you are fox news watchers, I urge you to see the truth of what Obama did, Which was nothing but legitimize the Bush tax cuts:

Obama had vowed to raise tax rates for the top-earning 2% of Americans, including those with household income above $250,000 and individuals earning more than $200,000.
Raising the threshold for higher tax rates shrinks the number of Americans affected.
While nearly 2% of filers have adjusted gross incomes over $250,000, only 0.6% have incomes above $500,000, according to the Tax Policy Center.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/02/politics/ ... index.html

What you should be outraged about is congress letting the Violence Against Women Act expire because they didn't want to protect Native American women, undocumented immigrants and lgbt from violence, letting the people of New Jersey suffer until Chris Christie called them out because NY and NJ doesn't vote Republican.

[heyhellowhatsnew]

Smoke and mirrors is the game politicians play to keep themselves in power and to keep us fighting against each other to ignore the fact they keep getting more power.

[Aurelian]

Wow, politics? Really? Even though it's against forum rules?

[goodwoodrw]

Wow I can't help myself with this one, I'll get my 2 bobs worth in before the thread is locked. [:D]

First of all, Mr. Wolfe hit the nail on the head. About 2 hundreds years out of date.
And I can see how the 2nd amendment was important in 1780 or 90 a young nation with no standing army at risk at invasion from any would be attacker, but now the strongest and most powerful nation in the world militarily, no longer needs arm citizens to defend its shores. Suddenly if Canada or Cuba decides to invade, I don't believe the local minute man or militia will have much to do.
Secondly the 2nd amendment has done so well protecting young American kids in schools, the thousands black and ethnic Americans from being maimed and killed in the past 200 years hasn't it?
Thirdly 30 round magazines for assault rifles ain't design for hunting, not unless your hunting the unthinkable or thinkable for some.
Finally, a country with more guns than people, the only ones that will suffer because stricter gun control will be manufacturing and importers of guns and ammo. How much more money do these people want and how many people will die because their need or greed,at the expense of the youth in your schools, and the lobbyist how long are are going to hide behind archaic constitutional law that is no longer valid today for their own pleasure while others are being maimed on a daily basis.
OOps better go and hide before I get shot for my opinion.

[Gilmer]

As I said. A lot of misinformation that is put out there. President Obama has been rated as the most liberal President we have ever had.

I had a lot more typed out, but this would be a very long post, if I started refuting the silliness I have read here.

[goodwoodrw]

Hey my silliness has sound logic.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: BASB
and how many people will die because their need

Oh give me a freaking break, please don't pretend you actually give a crap about death rates if you're for gun control. Here's some statistics to prove a point:

In 2010, guns took the lives of 31,076 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings.

Alcohol abuse kills some 75,000 Americans each year and shortens the lives of these people by an average of 30 years, a U.S. government study suggested.

Excessive alcohol consumption is the third leading cause of preventable death in the United States after tobacco use and poor eating and exercise habits.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which published the study, estimated that 34,833 people in 2001 died from cirrhosis of the liver, cancer and other diseases linked to drinking too much beer, wine and spirits.
Another 40,933 died from car crashes and other mishaps caused by excessive alcohol use.

If you want to cite the numbers of deaths that occur by guns in your argument to ban firearms then you better dam well be advocating for the return of prohibition as well. Otherwise your full of s**t and are simply pushing your agenda by politicizing a recent tragedy. That kind of feigned concern weakens your position in any rational persons view.

It's a whole different can of worms when someone talks about taking away your beer isn't it? Concern over death statistics go right out the window if it's an issue as sacred as beer. Oh one last statistic, 60% of gun homicides are alcohol related homicides.

If you can't make a strong argument based on the actual merits of your position, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your position.

Jim

[heyhellowhatsnew]

Just vote for a cyborg robot overlord like the end of the first Deus Ex game.

[goodwoodrw]

Mr Burns, Yes I do give a damn, and my grammar is poor, and facts may not be 100% right, but doesn't bother me, guns do. I have been on the wrong end of guns on several occasions and I don't particularly like that much. I have the right to dislike guns, I think I've earn that right.
Yes Cigarettes Grog and lots of other things kill too, but if you exclude passive smoke, smokers kill themselves not scores of innocent bystanders.

[rodney727]

Civil war no. The problem with America is welfare. Food stamp reform could save us billions. Put people to work let them earn their keep you know like Hitler did and that turned out alright err wait... Never mind .

[wodin]

Personally I'm envious that in the US you can arm and protect yourself..in the UK firearms are banned..yet there where 28 shootings last half year in Liverpool alone..

[barkman44]

not prophets?at the ratification of the constitution patrick henry was asked by the governor of virginia if virginia could leave the union once it was formed
Henry said you certainly could but be warned that some future president may invade your country and burn down your homes.
sounds pretty prophetic given what happened 71 years later!
also people need to remember that the constitution does'nt grant us rights it clarifies the rights we are endowed with naturally as human beings
and that which the government CANNOT interfere with or infringe!
the founders may not have been gods but i wish our current politicions had more of their intelligence and backbone{and please stop with the slave owner c**p that criticism is interposing our beliefs on a culture of 200 years ago and is stupid and a waste of time.
[/quote]

I never got the deification or fetishizing of our "founding fathers". They were old slave owners who believed in things like the best way to solve a dispute was the duel with handguns and other outdated nonsensical beliefs and genociding Native Americans

They were just humans that lived centuries ago. Not Gods. Not prophets.

At least they had the common sense to know that our constitution is something meant to be evolved, because they had to foresight to know that human thought evolved and things change. Or poor whites, women and people like me would never be able to vote. That kinda thing.

As I said, i'm very very very socialist and I don't think that the second amendment should be repealed. And it won't. There is no gestapo that will take your gun away. I promise you this. This is never going to happen. No one will come and take anyone's gun away ever.

After all, the NRA and other lobbyists have bought our representatives pretty well so that any idea of a true gun control solution that will help lessen the deaths of our children and teens will never happen.

Welcome to the government. Highest bidder gets what they want. More of a reason for ALL of us to band together against the wealthy elite.
[/quote]

[wodin]

Gun control wont lessen deaths of kids and teens..as those who do that will still get them anyway..I imagine it being an impossibility to claim back all he guns out there..those not handed in will belong to criminals or nutters..and only the law abiding will have nothing to defend themselves with.

Here we had someone goto a school and attack the kids and teacher with a machete instead.

When I had gang issues living in Anfield I was always waiting for the day they finally put it to me..either shot or stabbed and boy did I wish i had some means of protection from them..

[MrRoadrunner]

Wodin,
Yes, in the US it is a protected right to bear arms. We should not give it up. Bad people get their hands on guns and the innocent won't be able to defend themselves.
It happened in Aurora Co. The shooter went to the third theater and shot 12 defenseless innocents because it was a "gun free zone". The first two were "permit to carry concealed" and he avoided them because he "did not want to get hurt."
Virginia Tech was a gun free zone. How did that work out?
The President sends his children to a school that has 11 armed guards (and are hiring a 12th). And, the secret service detail are additionally armed.
In Connecticut they were unprotected, except by the brave teachers and administrators who put their lives in the way of the bullets. Had they been armed, or had an armed guard, it might have been different? At least our innocent ones would have protection?

Hitler confiscated guns in Germany. It sure did help when he rounded up the infirm, mental patients, gays, Jews, Christians, and all who resisted his Governmental policies?
"When they came for me" ... I hope they find me armed ... "there was no one to stand up for me".

If anyone does not want guns they can go to countries that ban them. That is fine by me. Don't go to Switzerland. I hear they are welcome there too.

RR

[barkman44]

Each year 45+% of criminals apprehended in this country are apprehended by armed citizens,what if we had no armed citizenship? alot more victimization but i could be wrong,right?