Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario

[MarkWayneClark]

I am going to play a game on Very Easy with my enemies on Very Hard and see what happens.  Maybe I can fight to a draw.

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

OK, again, WTF??? The German airforce in the West is HUGE and grows by several squadrons every turn IN 1944!!!!  Moreover, they are all level 4.  The Americans, stuck at level 3, cannot even dent them.  Not once, not ever.  Suicide mission every time. Every sortie, you lose a step (or two), they lose nothing. Every. Single. Time.

So only the Brits can play.  And only if the player spends a fortune (and several turns) upgrading every squadron to 4. Well, when a German squadron is at 10 steps, you basically have to spend five steps to knock it down to 9 or 8, at which time you might have a chance--but only with a full strength squadron.  So, you grind one of yours down to five to give another one at 10 three chances to knock a German unit down to (maybe) 7. Basically, the Germans completely dominate the air--IN 1944!!!!!!!!!

And where are they getting the money for this airforce?  I have their cities consistently at or close to zero through strat bombing.

The mechanics of this game have a lot going for it but the balance is atrocious.  It is, fundamentally, broken and a joke.

Mark Clark,
The AI research looks like magic because it is magically programmed that AI controlled countries get the next level of tech on a set time basis. There is a whole section of the event programming that gives the AI-controlled countries their new tech levels on a set time basis. The AI's don't have to spend any PP's on research.

The AI is given many cheats. I see that the AI countries aren't hampered by the 10% reinforcement limitation we have when in enemy territory, they can add massive reinforcements into units in enemy territory as if they were in their home country. The AI countries have magic strategic movement, they don't even need to be near rail lines to use it. I do see AI's wasting too many PP's on STP's and AIP's.

The Artificial Ignorance does many things wrong but these cheats help level the playing field against us humans. I play around with the AI for a faster game but for a better game I play all countries myself. I don't get as much suspense but do get a better game playting solitaire.

You do realize that you can go into the saved game files and edit things like tech levels don't you? They're basically OpenOffice spreadsheets and you can edit them to change or fix things. So cheat the cheating AI, it's only fair.
Omnius

[JLPOWELL]

This post has a modification which I think fixes the technology in this scenario

[JLPOWELL]

Not enough detail here for an actual AAR, but when I looked at this from a PvP perspective the GE do appear a bit heavy particularly in air. I played the standard scenario (v1.03 as provided not my MoD) to see how hard it actually is. The results were a bit surprising.

The USSR has to go on the Defensive for several months which indicates they are under-powered. In the west things are very different the AI just can't handle the dynamic of invasions and airdrops, and the UK/USA crushed the AI. Italy was taken in late May, and Hamburg Berlin Copenhagen and Paris were all taken by September 1944 (USSR really never got any traction, but was on the offensive by mid summer.

Settings were FOW set to 3 everything else at the scenario default. US/UK/USSR/Iraq/Persia/Free French/ Human all others AI.

Suggestions to strengthen AI (AI only scenarios this would mess up a PBEM game IMO)
German AI needs strong frozen units on all objective hexes particularly Milan

Generally the scenario has German air way overrated vrs Allied air particularly USA
USSR very weak on ground (again in 1944 ouch...) Recommend increase USSR tech on tanks and inf to 4 and a war effectiveness boost. Adding some (quite a few) frozen units on rails behind the lines with 'freeze expiration' set at intervals would be an easy mod.

Really didn't like Axis bombing units in England early in game and attacking ftrs based there (successfully) and USSR getting pushed back in spring of 44

I think the Germany is overpowered vrs the USSR, and has sufficient strength to hold the allies, but insufficient 'I'

General impression is US is under powered compared to UK with serious lag in tech (Really in 1944 seriously)and the USSR should be able to go on the offensive (again this is 1944) but the scenario is not as out balance as a quick look indicated.

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

Anyone else agree?

[MarkWayneClark]

I'm at the point where I think it's just time to give up. I cannot figure out how to mount an offensive to save my life.

The SU is a total patsy.  I have to have dead straight line everywhere or I lose corps.  Full strenght corps, mech, WITH a general, behind a river on three sides, gets attacked and surrenders every time.

ANY corps that can be attacked on three sides, even if every single one of those attacks is over water, surrenders every time.

Whenever I face a German corps in the same situation, I get at best 4:1 odds. I can't ever kill it or make it surrender. Even when they have LOWER values than the ones I am losing.

So my lines can have no "knees."

There is no way to mount an offensive.

Is the game supposed to be this way or am I just doing something wrong?

[JLPOWELL]

Is the game supposed to be this way or am I just doing something wrong?

USSR is under-powered in this (and most scenarios) Still the AI is so dull it wasn't hard to win the scenario.

Here are a few hints.

1. Unrealistic as it seems USSR needs to go on defensive and even fall back,try to keep cities however (I lost Odessa LOL like that was ever going to happen in 44) until you can build up an air force and a lot of full strength corps units. The only way to push the uber strong German units is to bomb the poop out of them. The AI will overextend as well (it is dumb as a rock) so you as you fall back you can cut in behind and isolate the overpowered units (you can kill any uber unit if bombed, out of supply and hit from 4 5 or 6 sides)

2. US and UK can beat the Germans in the west (Only vrs AI not much hope vrs human I expect) Send USD$$ to UK as they can build level 4 units. Use UK units to push and swarm and hold with lots of US units. Fly recon and do invasions where Germans are not defending.

You can't say the Germans are unbeatable. The AI is REALLY dumb but has REALLY strong units. I was never able to get much offensive traction with the USSR except in Finland. The US UK however took Italy in about 6 turns, Then Berlin and Hamburg (both the German MSS sources) by October of 44. Germany doesn't surrender however and the AI put an enormous number of units in Norway which I expect would have take a long time to root out. I stopped & called it a win with Paris Copenhagen, Benelux, the Ruhr, Hamburg and Berlin in US/UK control in Oct 1944.

The absolute key to killing the big German units is LOTS of air power. I am not saying this is historically accurate or realistic, but you play the game you are in not the one you want to be in (for me that's World in Flames which I hope to play sometime before 2020) Another key to fighting Germany in this game (vrs Human or AI) is to stop powerful units from gaining experience particularly armor corps. Pretty much raining Tac and STR on them to keep them weak (they reinforce but loose experience)

Good Luck, once you get good at beating up the AI you are ready to try PBEM....

[MarkWayneClark]

Yeah, I was concluding that setting defensive lines was the way to go.  Clearly I have also been underutilizing my air force as well.
 
Thanks.

[MarkWayneClark]

OK, a 100% corps just surrendered to a two-pronged attack, one across a river.

Does every unit have to be a freaking armored corps to survive?

[JLPOWELL]

USSR is tough to play at these settings, a level 4 full German Armor Corps can be over 50 attack a level 2 USSR inf corps could get killed by one let alone 2. Try to leave a retreat route and put good leaders where you think you will get attacked. I am not defending the scenario, it is totally bogus the USSR is pushed back so easily at this point in the war. But as USSR (in this scenario as designed )you need to back up and build up before you can do much of anything.

[MarkWayneClark]

Just flew 15 consecutive sorties against a single german fighter squadron.  Mine all at level 4 and so was his.  Did not make a dent, not ONE step.  He chewed half of mine down to level six, however.
 
Can someone explain that?  Bad luck?  Or do you need aircraft at level 99 before you can take on the invincible AI?

[MarkWayneClark]

Just re-loaded from a save, it happened again.
 
Pardon my French but, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH THIS GAME?  The Germans should not even have any planes in the west in 1944, instead they have squadron after squadron of level 4 aircraft that are completely invincible!

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

Just re-loaded from a save, it happened again.

Pardon my French but, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH THIS GAME?  The Germans should not even have any planes in the west in 1944, instead they have squadron after squadron of level 4 aircraft that are completely invincible!

I'm playing the same scenario. My air units out of the UK have completely dominated the skies over France. I have destroyed at least four German air squadrons there. The only German air right now is based in Germany, out of range, and protecting strategic cities. My UK and US fleets are now in the Channel adding their air power, decimating the German coastal defenses prior to DDay.

Use the rightmost button on the mini-map to see air superiority. Green means you have control, red the enemy.

German air tech was very high at this stage of the war, and they were pumping out new air units faster than ever before in '44. However, Allied tech is up there too, with even more production. Take out German fighters wherever you can reach. Overwhelm them.

[MarkWayneClark]

That's what I'm trying to do.  I think the supply bug was hurting.  Now that I "fixed" it (by cheating) I am having better luck against the Luftwaffe.

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

Just flew 15 consecutive sorties against a single german fighter squadron.  Mine all at level 4 and so was his.  Did not make a dent, not ONE step.  He chewed half of mine down to level six, however.

Can someone explain that?  Bad luck?  Or do you need aircraft at level 99 before you can take on the invincible AI?

Mark,
I took a look at the Gotterdamerung scenario and think of it as God Damned Wrong. I posted a few errors that need fixing but they won't really affect play balance. Did you look at the initial setup by setting Germany to human and turning off fog of war just to look at the setup? One thing I noticed was how few units there are on the Eastern Front for both sides but especially the Soviets.

Before playing a scenario I like to play as Switzerland and just let the AI's run amok. With FoW on and turning off clicking to dismiss the combat screens you can go through a whole lot of turns in short order to see how balanced or unbalanced the AI's are. I found that the Allied AI's don't seem to have too much trouble like you've had, espeically in Italy.

I did notice that the War Economy multiples are rather low, the USA and USSR just don't seem to be economic powerhouses like they were in history, that is most likely a big part of the problem.

If you want a good game then stop playing the Artificial Ignorances because they cheat way too much. I find that playing every country on human is the best way to enjoy the game. Yeah you lose the surprise factor but you can turn on the fog of war to keep from knowing too much about the other side.
Omnius

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

Just flew 15 consecutive sorties against a single german fighter squadron.  Mine all at level 4 and so was his.  Did not make a dent, not ONE step.  He chewed half of mine down to level six, however.

Can someone explain that?  Bad luck?  Or do you need aircraft at level 99 before you can take on the invincible AI?

Mark,
I've been playing around with Strategic War in Europe because it's so much cleaner to play without so many bugs like in ToF. One thing about air power that I discovered from playing with SWiE is that the best way to reduce enemy fighters is by using my tactical bombers. You need to pay to the Air Superiority screen, it shows you where you have air superiority or not. I found that by ensuring my fighters are very near the front and covering hexes where I want to do tactical bombing I can use tactical bombers to draw enemy fighters out at a disadvantage thus whittling them down that way. You really need to whittle down enemy AI fighters before attacking them with full strength fighters of your own, then they'll shrivel and die. I also find using carrier air power works well in this regard and repairing a point of carrier air is cheaper than repairing actual air units.
Omnius