New name for recon, ideas ?

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 11:21 pm

Originally posted by rosary
But I'd also be o.k. if the stealth skill had a geometric decline in effectivness dependant upon the weight class of the Titan.

Sure. However, weight class is already a factor, in a small way, in the situations modified by the recon skill:
In WS the recon skill reduces movement time when running through woods (woods only, any woods), grants additional protection from weapons fire and increases the hiding factor of titans in any type of cover.
Now, shaving off a couple of seconds in 14 secs is a lot more significant than the same amount in 32 secs. Also, the target's height attack penalty is higher for recons than for assaults. Finally, the base HD factor is dependent on a titan's height.

About the stealth designation, of those 3 situations only one (HD) relates to stealth - keep in mind that in ToS the defensive modifier has nothing to do with a titan being hidden, they're separate things. They all relate in some way to recon/scouting though - navigation, protection, hiding.
This is why I think [scout/light & recon] or [recon/light & scouting] is the best approach.
I favor the first for the simple fact that even though scouting and recon are the same thing, scouting is more associated with the "old", "on foot" type of reconnoitering, whereas recon can easily be transposed to satellite imaging, spy drones, intel from operatives on the field, whatever.
I do admit it would be easier and less disrupting to go for the second option though.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 11:48 pm

Originally posted by rosary
To Prince Corrin, He's the King because a Watery Tart lobbed a scimitar at him.

How do you know he's not a peasant?
Well he's not covered in ****, that's how.

Bring out yer dead!! Bring out yer dead!!
Hear now, he's not dead!
Yes he is.
No he's not! He's still moving!
No he's not. Stone dead he is.

On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place.

Megrez · Post by **Megrez** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 3:13 am

Oh my, here we go again. Again, you read what suits you. In your quote of the manual, it says: "hexes which cannot be scanned...". So the jock memory part is bogus. Who gives a crap? It's a manual, not a novel.

LOL

should I remind you that as Larkin already said, v1.4 is NO LONGER SUPPORTED

And so? Have you got the new version's manual?

Ok Mr. Prophet

You know the holy truth

I will be your submissive slave

I will be silent

LOL

Megrez

P.S. to Rosary:
Never said that I don't want the Fog of War

But you have to admit that, if someone does a pre-battle recon, "probably" he will also know the geographical features of the place where he will fight.
Fog of War works if none of the opponents knows those features: if someone does a pre-battle recon Fog of War is meaningless. In the game there's the Fog of War: I like it

So I think you should find a better explanation about the recon skill... you could also change that name.
You wanna rename Recon titans to Scout titans? Ok

I prefer recon... but it's ok...
But pls... change recon skill in somethin' else... somethin which is credible...
Iceman's explanation is not.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:58 pm

As a matter of fact, I do. An old pdf version, the new MSWord version, and the html version I've been updating. Is this a satisfatory answer to your question?

And stop doing that. The pre-battle recon is my doing, Rosary or VB have nothing to do with that. I made it up. Why are you using it? It's not credible, but you don't have a better one?! I am the Prophet, I say what is credible or not! So be silent. And I don't do the submission thing...
You seem to forget an hex is 333m across too. And that there are a few levels of shading, each lasting for something like 100 game secs or so, and you can see the terrain type underneath though you cannot scan it. So a jock's memory is not that bad, considering he is in hostile environment, under fire, and with better things on his mind.
And since we're at it, why don't jocks (and pilots in EVERY other strategy game with fog of war) just take a simple MAP with them on the cockpit? That'd solve all their problems regarding terrain... stupid game developers, huh? Doh!

mutt2050 · Post by **mutt2050** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:48 pm

Here are my ideas for changing recon.

Stratigic move
Covert move

I do also like the stealth idea too.

CrushU · Post by **CrushU** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:52 pm

i thought recon let you see farther... hmm... oh well.

hmm, names...

scouting would work great, except that scouting doesnt always imply movement. Scouting usually relates to ability to see, and ability to avoid detection. It *can* imply movement, if explicitly stated.

Recon relates to the methods behind obtaining reconnisance. Like ability to see, ability to remember, and ability to quickly get in and out before enemies can see you.

Stealth relates to abilities with avoiding detection. Moving fast can be a way to avoid detection. (example: In AD&D (yes, tos is not ad&d) usually for a stealth/hide skill, you get negative modifiers on the check if you are large and bulky. So this recon skill should also lose effect with heavier titans.)

Hunting might be good... It might imply that it increases damage... But if you think, hunters can usually move quickly through woods, can see in woods further than other people, and can aim through woods better than other people. Although the name seems... wrong... for some reason. Probably because Titans dont look like deer.

Ald_Dark_Cobalt · Post by **Ald_Dark_Cobalt** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 8:33 am

Hmmm...
What about...

Ranger
Ranger Training
Ranging
Rangership
Concealment
Scouting
Dark Patrol
Shading

Delayed Blast Fireball
Power Word Kill

Cooking

Or much easier, change the class 1 name to Ranger (or Scout).

rosary · Post by **rosary** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:13 pm

Originally posted by Megrez

LOL

And so? Have you got the new version's manual?

Ok Mr. Prophet
You know the holy truth
I will be your submissive slave
I will be silent

LOL

Megrez

P.S. to Rosary:
Never said that I don't want the Fog of War But you have to admit that, if someone does a pre-battle recon, "probably" he will also know the geographical features of the place where he will fight.
Fog of War works if none of the opponents knows those features: if someone does a pre-battle recon Fog of War is meaningless. In the game there's the Fog of War: I like it So I think you should find a better explanation about the recon skill... you could also change that name.
You wanna rename Recon titans to Scout titans? Ok I prefer recon... but it's ok...
But pls... change recon skill in somethin' else... somethin which is credible...
Iceman's explanation is not.

Yes, this information is given to the player who then tries to remember it. That means You.
You'll remember the terrain and other things as well as you can. The game doesn't do it for you all of the time. It does try to remember the last known positions of enemies and allies.

rosary · Post by **rosary** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:18 pm

I should mention that the new 3D terrain look seems to be making the game quite different. But in a very good way.

Megrez · Post by **Megrez** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:01 pm

Yes, this information is given to the player who then tries to remember it. That means You.
You'll remember the terrain and other things as well as you can. The game doesn't do it for you all of the time. It does try to remember the last known positions of enemies and allies.

It's quite intuitive if you play with the game at least a couple of minutes.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:22 am

I wonder why you have not come to this conclusion *before* raising the issue...

As a side note, Marga's tutorial "tells the story" as you being a Unit Commander, overseeing the battle safely in your Unit's Headquarters, while your troops actually do the fighting.

Megrez · Post by **Megrez** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:00 am

I agree with Rosary when he says:

Yes, this information is given to the player who then tries to remember it. That means You.
You'll remember the terrain and other things as well as you can. The game doesn't do it for you all of the time. It does try to remember the last known positions of enemies and allies.

and I still do not agree with you (Iceman) when you say:

I think Recon fits it right, as it's a result of a good pre-battle recon that you get to find good spots to hide and see without being seen and all that. Good recon also makes you find the best way through those dense woods.

I think that Rosary's statement is a little different from what you say...

As I already told... if you did a pre-battle recon and if you remember where there is a good spot to hide you should also remember the features of the hex where that spot is located, and where that hex is located amongst the other hexes (and consequently you should also remember the locations of all the hexes)... In the game, actually, this doesn't happen. So your explanation is not good.
That's the reason that drove me to post my previous replies.
Rosary is true when he says that: "You'll remember the terrain and other things as well as you can. The game doesn't do it for you all of the time. It does try to remember the last known positions of enemies and allies." Those things are also written in the old manual.
I don't know the new one, and probably you know it better than I do, 'cause you wrote you have got the new version.
But, if in the new one there's the explanation you gave us (or somethin' like that) about the recon skill, well.. it isn't credible.

Meg

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:56 pm

There you go squirming again. Heh.
And your explanation why my point of view is different from Eric's is not good. It says nothing. How did you put it, it's not credible.

So it took Eric to make you go back reading the manual and... *wow* ... there it is, something in the manual that I "forgot" to read and add to my reasoning.
I didn't change anything in the manual in that part. I don't add stuff cause I feel like it, you know. I add/update facts, not my own personal views of the game. And I didn't give "us" anything, I tried to explain *you* something. You are not mentally impaired, are you? It's not that hard to grasp.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:00 pm

Can anyone sum up whats going on in this thread ? My mental image is slowly fading ....

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:56 pm

Ummmmmm.......
I think we were trying to decide whether changing recon class to scout class would be a good idea.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 12:54 pm

Well, it all started with changing recon/light or recon.
Then it somehow snowballed into fog of war, because someone went reading a part of the manual that had nothing to do with the situation at hand.
And now we're completely mixing the 2 issues, which have nothing to do with each other.
Did I miss anything?

Megrez:
Listen, you have taken my pre-battle recon reasoning and turned it into a snowball, to make your point. That's not the way to explain your own points. You have produced only ONE other name for the skill (sneak whatever), and did NOT explain why it is good for the skill. Maybe because it isn't?
I have thoroughly explained why I think recon fits it right, with GAME MECHANICS. You seem to have "forgotten" to read the post where I explained just that, concentrating solely on the pre-battle recon statement. You also failed to see that that particular statement was only PART of my reasoning. You even said the reasoning worked for RL, but not for the game - but you forgot to say why it doesn't work for the game.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:56 pm

I settled for changing the recon skill to scouting

No perfect but ok.

mutt2050 · Post by **mutt2050** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:53 pm

Thank the gods. Now maybe that will end Megrez and Thorm's battle of wills. ( I personally agree with Thorm. He lays his point out well and keeps it simple though sometimes a little agresive and long winded hehe):D

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:55 pm

Preach it brother!!
AMEN!!

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:09 pm

I'm not aggressive:rolleyes:
Sometimes a little pounding in the head will take you farther than a whole lot of words, and has the additional advantage of saving bandwidth. Just because I don't use 8

and 2

in each and every post doesn't mean I'm being aggressive or acting pissed. I actually like these arguments. Someone always learns something, and at times something new comes up.
Long winded? **** straight. I don't go around in circles chasing my own tail when I run out of arguments though.

A few thoughts:
This is a *game*. IMO it is as real as you can get, without losing playability.
The manual is not perfect, but you should have seen v1.2.1's.
ToS v1.4 is the freeware version, and no longer supported. WS is a whole new ball game. Larkin's changes log has crossed the 400 count, between bug fixes and new features.

New name for recon, ideas ?

To be clear...

Summing up